DIY fipple question (width of fipple dependencies)

[mabman]

Greetings. (Please move this if this is not the right forum for it.) I've been looking at the Low-Tech Whistle page (http://www.ggwhistles.com/howto/) and I have a question; I am looking at making a Ukrainian-style "floyara" as noted in the picture at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UI-Floyara.jpg , but as I am (so far) hopeless at end-blown flutes, I want to put a fipple on the end of it.

From what I've read I gather that most low whistles use a wider fipple than regular whistles. However, it appears that most low whistles also use a pipe diameter of 1".

Although not noted in the above floyara graphic, the few examples I can find on YouTube seem to indicate that floyaras are typically narrower than 1". Using the Flutomat calculator, if I plug in typical values for 1/2" Schedule 40 PVC, 600mm (approx. 24") would be about right for concert C (which matches the floyara dimensions in the graphic above), so I'm planning on using that diameter.

Now, to the question: If I were to build a whistle instrument, except using 1/2" pipe instead of 1" as normally used for the pitch in question, should I be using the same width of fipple for a 1" diameter low whistle of the same pitch, or should I use a narrower fipple? To put it another way, is the width of the fipple more dependent on the length of the pipe, or the diameter of the pipe?

Thanks for all advice.

[hans]

On my aluminium whistles I use a window width of about 0.6 to 0.7 times the tube bore diameter. The length of the tube also plays a role: if it gets longer, for a lower bottom note (lower key), a wider windway may be better, in order to get enough power to drive a longer air column. In addition to all this, the height of the wind way has some bearing on the width, as it increases the air flow. If it is too high, the whistle may need too much air for comfortable playing.

I have not made any PVC whistles, so for those you may well need a smaller width factor than 0.6, because of a higher wind way due to PVC tube wall thickness, which is higher than alu tube wall thickness for whistles ( I normally use alu tubing with 1mm for high whistles and 1.2mm for all lower whistles, and some with 1.6mm wall thickness).

[Innocent Bystander]

I make Polypropylene whistles, which are as near PVC in their behaviour as makes no difference.
The sizes of tube available to me are 15mm and 22mm in their internal diameter. Making a low whistle on the narrow diameter has occurred to me. The nearest I've got to that is making an A. It works nicely.

As Hans has responded, it sounds as though you want to know the proper windway width. The fipple has to be of a size to block the pipe. When people are talking about PVC and plumbing-pipe whistles, the fipple tends to be a plug which goes inside the pipe. Wooden-whistle makers tend to mean something different by the term "fipple": it can mean the whole head of the whistle. For my plumbing-pipe jobs, there is one size of dowel correct for each size of pipe.

Since I don't make commercially, I am not too scientific in my approach. It seems to me, from experience, that there is a comfortable width for the window. It just "looks right". The right size is a little narrower than a quarter of the circumference. I've made narrower windows, which are on the quiet side. Wider windows need more breath.

I have tried my hand at a quena and a floyara. The quena was successful. I couldn't get a note out of a plumbing-pipe floyara. I've played a real one, and the musician who owned it was a little taken aback that I managed to get a note out of it. He hastily repossessed it in case I wanted it for myself. Good luck with yours.

[mabman]

Thank you both - "windway width" is the proper term I'm looking for.

Interesting - some good starting points suggested, thanks again.

[highwood]

The windway width will be related to the diameter of the tube, that said it can made narrower with the effect of making the whistle quieter and requiring less wind - which is not to say that a whistle with narrow windway will be quieter whistle than one with a wider windway.

The picture of the floyara makes it appear to had a smaller tube diameter to length than whistles in general - suggests that perhaps it does not sound the fundamental but the overtones (the holes also make more sense if that is true).

Unfortunately the lacking dimensions (tube id, and hole ids) are somewhat important to the construction still it will get you close.

Have fun - let us know how it works out.

[highwood]

And you might also want to consider that the smaller the window opening of a fipple flute the longer the effective tube length is...

Anyone know what scale (if any) this instrument is meant to produce, fingerings?

I quickly tried with a piece of 1/2" CTS but I think it is too small in diameter.

[mabman]

And you might also want to consider that the smaller the window opening of a fipple flute the longer the effective tube length is...

Anyone know what scale (if any) this instrument is meant to produce, fingerings?

I quickly tried with a piece of 1/2" CTS but I think it is too small in diameter.

From what I've heard it normally has a breathy sound. It's possible there are overtones being produced, but it's difficult to tell as traditionally the player sometimes hums while playing. I have no idea what the scale is - it's one of the things I'd like to find out by making one.

There is an example of one approx. this length on YouTube here . There are a couple of other videos with shorter flutes also identified as "floyara", but may more properly be "floyarka" (small floyara) - here and here - I'm assuming they're the same scale/fingerings.

Thanks for the advice.

[hans]

The breathy sound comes from it being an end-blown flute, like Serbian kavals. The instrument reminds me of the Moldvai kaval (from Eastern Romania, not so far away from the Ukrainian Carpathians), see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EHjLuAO6Rc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF_1yfqsD2M
The finger hole positions seem similar, but with an extra fourth hole, so you get two groups of three holes, instead of one group of three holes and one group of two holes.
A Moldvai kaval with base note A (which is common) has these scale notes:
A B C D# E F, and overblowing to second and third register notes is normal.

So assuming I am correct with the extra hole being a semi-tone up, we get this theoretical scale for a floyara with base note A:
A B C C# D# E F
The floyara in the clip got something like a G# base note, so not too different.
Would be nice to have this confirmed or rejected, by analysing floyara sound clips.

The Molvai kaval is not an end-blown flute like the Serbian kaval, but a fipple flute, in fact a low whistle. Just that the window is on the underside, so you don't see it, and it has no beak. Humming while playing is also normal, just as with the floyara.

[mabman]

Very interesting, thanks. Although I can't be sure and it is tapered/flared to some extent, it seems to me that the kaval in the 2nd video is a larger diameter - closer to 1" than 1/2" inch. So, good to know that general style of whistle/flute can also work in a larger diameter than what I'm planning. I also like the tone the players are getting - still somewhat breathy (or at least breathier than what I would expect from a tin whistle or recorder, for example).

It's been noted that a wider windway width affects breathiness - does the windway being at the bottom have any effect on this?

Hopefully I'll get to do some testing this weekend

[hans]

It's been noted that a wider windway width affects breathiness - does the windway being at the bottom have any effect on this?

In my experience windway width does not affect breathiness.
Window dimensions do to some degree: widening the distance between windway exit and sounding edge may introduce some breathiness.
How the windway aligns to the sounding edge may, and is crucial in getting a tone.
And sharpness of edges will introduce breathiness.
A player can also add breathiness deliberately.