Flutes in Different Keys?

Blayloch · Post by **Blayloch** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 4:51 pm

Okay, this whole flutes in differnet keys is REALLY baking my noodle now....

From what I understand of music (not enough obviously) an instrument plays specific notes within a specific range. My D flute plays the first D above middle C, it cannot play middle C.

On this flute, a fingering pattern will play particular notes:
xxxxoo F#
xxoooo A
xxxxoo F#
xxxxxo E
xxxxxx D
------------
So when I learn to play a song that calls for the following:

#|---------------------------
--|...........................
--|---------------------------
#|...........................
--|---------------------------
--|.....d.....................
--|---------------------------
--|..d.....d..................
--|------------d--------------
--|..................d........

I would use the fingering above for a D flute.

This is where I get confused....
if I pick up a C flute, I need to use entirely different fingering to play the same tune:

xxxoxo F#
xooooo A
xxxoxo F#
xxxxoo E
xxxxxo D

So to play the same song on flutes of seperate keys requires relearning the fingering for the song on the new flute.

If I were to use the same fingering on both flutes it might transpose the music to a differnt key, but then of course we are playing different notes, which is not the same song. Its the same melody, but different notes.

Now, introducing the case of my wifes new flute:
Its in the key of Eb Major, tuned to the relative Minor Scale. Which is C, D, Eb, F, Ab, Bb, C

So the bell note on this flute sounds C.
Using the fingering in the example for the D flute above we would get an entirely different piece of music. It would be transposed down a full step, and converted to a different key/scale.

So, this is where I get really lost, If I'm playing "When Irish Eyes are Smiling" (Cause I'm new and slow) on my D flute, and learn it perfectly, then I grab my wifes Eb minor flute or a G whistle etc and play with the same fingering, the same song does not come out.

Now alot of people and tutorials say to play a tune written for C with a D flute you play the same but the bottom note sounds a D instead and it gets transposed up a step. What about the added Sharps? And what if its a new piece of music, do you learn it backwards so it can un-transpose when you go back to a C flute?

When you guys look at a trebble cleff, do you see a note or a finger position?

Its all getting very confusing for me, please share your thoughs, help shed some light.

Thanks,
Aaron

[edited to fix my pretty pictures]

[ This Message was edited by: Blayloch on 2003-01-04 18:06 ]

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 5:03 pm

It is absolutely the same tune when played in two different keys. If you know a tune on your D flute and other people are playing the tune in a key other than D, E minor, G or, A minor, then you need to play it, with the same fingering, on a flute of a different key. D flutes are true to notation, but all other keys of flutes are transposing instruments. Learn one fingering for each tune and switch instruments when necessary to match the key played by other people on other instruments. For Irish music, a D flute is perfect.

SeraFin · Post by **SeraFin** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 5:26 pm

it seems to be the same song, in essence, but it sounds different, as it would be in a different key. i think the thing is wanting to be able to play the same song on a different flute but in the key it was written, not transposing.. so a song in d, played by a flutest in d, can be accompanied by a flute in e flat because the e flatist can cross finger to get the correct notes as written on the music.

just my ideas..

Blayloch · Post by **Blayloch** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 5:29 pm

Aye,
this seems to be where my confusion was comming from.

On a piano, you play what you see, on a clarinet, you have a large enough range to do the same. So what was throwing me was picturing grabbing a C flute and trying to play the same NOTES as opposed to playeing the TRANSPOSED SONG. I had yet to distinguish the difference.

Its starting to make sense, but some more examples would be helpfull

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 6:26 pm

Serafin is incorrect.

It is good for a guitarist to be able to play in different keys, and it is useful for a classical musician to transpose into different keys on the Boehm flute (to develop finger dexterity for help with other pieces), but with a simple system flute used in Irish music, it is not so. A keyless Irish flute cannot be cross-fingered for all of the notes in a chromatic scale and it is NOT expected of the player.

Edited to fix typo.

[ This Message was edited by: JessieK on 2003-01-04 19:27 ]

clark · Post by **clark** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 6:34 pm

Well, I'm going to try to make this clearer (more practical) for you... but sometime I confuse myself with this too.

The band I play in plays Ashoken Farewell in D. This is a nice key for the fiddle and mandolin, and most of the notes work for the D flute, but it does go down below my bell note several times... as far down as low A. Now playing it an octave up works except for the very high squreechy Es and Fs. So if I play it with my D flute I just change register as needed and do lots of harmony lines.

If, on the other hand, I want to play melody easily; here is what I do. I get out my A whistle (I don't have an A flute) and play the tune with fingerings for Ashokan Farewell in G (C natural fingering). By doing this on an A instrument the sound comes out in the key of D. So I am using the instument to transpose for me into a key that works with the fingerings and range. Kind of like using a capo on the guitar.

There are a number of songs that we do where I need to use different whistles and flutes to match an odd (for Irish trad) key that is used to accomodate someones vocal range. Here is an attempt to reproduce a table I keep handy to figue out what instrument to pull out. Column one is the home key of the flute/whistle. Column two is the key that sounds when played with the C-natural fingering. The third column is the key when you start with the low "E" note fingering and play the scale with C-natural fingering as well.

Home Key....C-Natural ...Scale fr E with C-nat
D..............G..............Em
Eb.............Ab.............Fm
E..............A..............F#m
F..............Bb.............Gm
G..............C..............Am
A..............D..............Bm
Bb.............Eb.............Cm
C..............F..............D

So using the Ashoken Farewell example you can see that if others are playing the song is in D and you want to play it with an A instrument, you would have to play it with fingerings as though it were a D flute playing in G.

[ This Message was edited by: clark on 2003-01-04 19:38 ]

SeraFin · Post by **SeraFin** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 6:47 pm

is this forum for Only Irish flute??

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 7:22 pm

No, this forum is not for Irish-0nly, far as I know, but you will find more Irish music players on a forum mostly featuring conical wooden flutes and whistles.
Regarding everything else discussed here, things are being made much more complicated than necessary.
A tune is a tune regardless of key. Sing a song, then change its key. Same song, right, maybe pitched a bit higher or lower? Same thing with a tune. The melody is the tune, the key notwithstanding. That certain tunes feel/sound good in certain pitches is a subjective thing.
If you wanted to notate a tune in an odd key, say, Eb, then you would have to write it out in the key of Eb. But if you wanted to play a tune in Eb, it plays quite easily on an Eb flute, in fingerings that a person used to a D flute will find familiar and comfortable. Play the same tune on a keyed D flute in Eb, and now you'd have to change your fingerings, use the Bb key, the Eb key, the Fnatural and the Cnatural(cross or keyed). Much easier on a keyless Eb, no?
Fortunately, most traditional Irish tunes are in D flute friendly keys, and finger keys are scarcely necessary. Still, the same tunes are often played on Eb flutes (Matt Malloy often uses one, as does Frankie Gavin, John Creaven, etc.). But I don't have an Eb flute, so I play the same tunes on my D flute, where they were supposed to be played in the first place. Simple, right?

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 7:25 pm

Serafin, this is a forum for (mostly) wooden simple system flutes (the ones used in Irish Music), Irish whistles, Irish pipes, and Irish traditional music. Because it is a community of musicians, we sometimes talk about other kinds of instruments, but the focus IS on Irish music.

Gordon, good illustration about singing a song.

[ This Message was edited by: JessieK on 2003-01-04 20:33 ]

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 8:28 pm

Yes, but if we look back over at the post that started all this -- a flute pitched in C minor (being called an Eb minor flute), what I said doesn't rightly apply. If you play a tune in D major on it, unlike a flute pitched simply higher or lower, you'd hit the minor third instead of the major (in D, this'd be an Fnatural instead of the F# we've come to expect on our third hole up) and the tune played would not be the same. And then you've got a flattened 5th and 6th hole going up as well, Ab and Bb, instead of the relative A and B. So the melody will be completely off (interesting, but off). The flute will only play in Eb major starting on the Eb note (the third), and so this flute becomes highly impractical for playing tunes other than highly specialized tunes in, well, C minor and its corresponding keys.
Good luck with that, I say!

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Sat Jan 04, 2003 9:26 pm

That's true, Gordon. It's different fingering for the F# on Boehm and simple system flutes, but that doesn't mean it has to be transposed. But I guess that's why he didn't think it was the same tune. Good thinking.

Blayloch · Post by **Blayloch** » Sun Jan 05, 2003 6:10 pm

This whole thread has been very helpfull for me.

From what you'v all said I realized that my understanding of transposing and its need for such was erroneus, quite possibly rooted in Piano.

Anyway, I picked up a book on music theory. That, combined with your posts here and some talks with local flutists have helped me get a better understanding of the technicalities of transposing.

It seems that for far too many of us, the basic music lessons that we received as children were tailored more towards the needs and bias of the teacher than the needs of a future musician.

Thanks for taking the time to dredge through this topic for me, it makes alot more sense now.