Confusion on Cuts

[Peter Duggan]

and neither teacher refers to a casadh.

Which therefore doesn't exist?

Now the idea of starting a cut with the cutting finger in mid-air so to speak seems wrong.

But it's not.

No way can you get the cuts as tight that way as with a tiny blip or flick of the cutting finger from the main note.

Oh yes you can!

[Mr.Gumby]

Which therefore doesn't exist?

That wasn't the suggestion. The term however is not one I have ever come across in the context of Irish music. I would be somewhat wary of directly carrying over Scottish terminology and associated execution of ornaments to Irish music.

An ornament that can be written as {Bc}B would in an Irish context not be referred to as a 'double cut' . Séamus Ennis, in his tutor for the pipes, refers to this form as a 'gracenote' to distinguish it from the plain 'cut' (eg {g}E).

The notation (of the 'gracenote') can however cover several different timings of the actual cut, a 'delayed cut' is a pretty common device.

I think some confusion enters in Mikethebook's post with regards to the 'double cut', the 'cran like' figure he describes occurs in the context of the 'double cut roll'. But would not be widely used on it's own.

[cunparis]

I think this thread was useful in that we clarified some terms, even if people use the terms differently to mean different things.

By the terms in this thread, I mainly use the basic cut and haven't learned double cuts yet. My question is this: do some people use double cuts for alltheir cuts? or is it reserved for special situations? I have the impression that mikethebook is using double cuts exclusively. I'm just now getting comfortable with basic cuts.

[Mikethebook]

But according to my "sources," an ex-pupil of Mary Bergin and a graduate of a post-graduate degree in Irish Music Performance based in Ireland, a cut starts and finishes on the note being cut. That is NOT a double-cut or casadh or whatever you want to call it. A double-cut is something else that involves cutting two notes. Why there is this huge dsicrepancy in thought I don't know. All I know is that two people with impecable credentials in ITM believe that a cut on E is EaE and not aE.

[Mr.Gumby]

There isn't really a codified use of terms, that's oral transmission for you I suppose.

As to cut/double cut, to my mind it's an issue you probably don't want to over-think too much. Like Mike I would be a bit suspicious about the idea of starting a cut in mid air and describing landing on a note as a 'cut'. Surely, you can do it by going into it tonguing the note but in reality I am not sure how many players whose music I admire would actually go about things that way.

To my mind it makes more sense to put the finger down before executing the cut, particularly when playing a note cut with the note above and {Bc}B in that case would be closer to the reality of how I play the cut than {c}B. Ofcourse the length of the {B} in the {Bc} movement can vary quite a bit but for the purpose of just 'cutting' the B the duration of that {B} would be almost negligible and serves more as an indication the cut is made from a finger down position.


Having said all that, this is already way into 'over-thinking' territory.

Cross posted with Mike's post.

[Mikethebook]

Thanks Mr Gumby. Let me quote from Grey Larsen's tome on whistle playing. "The movement of the cut is a very small and quick lift of a finger completely off its hole and the immediate replacement of that finger."

[Peter Duggan]

The term however is not one I have ever come across in the context of Irish music. I would be somewhat wary of directly carrying over Scottish terminology and associated execution of ornaments to Irish music.

But it's not Scottish... it's Irish, as described in Geraldine Cotter's Traditional Irish Tin Whistle Tutor:

'The casadh is similar to the cut exept [sic] that the principal note is also part of the ornament'

Although Grey Larsen comments (in his Essential Guide) that he has 'not been able to find any other mention of the term casadh in the literature.'

All I know is that two people with impecable credentials in ITM believe that a cut on E is EaE and not aE.

And a third (Cotter) says it's not...

Let me quote from Grey Larsen's tome on whistle playing. "The movement of the cut is a very small and quick lift of a finger completely off its hole and the immediate replacement of that finger."

But he also says that in the Essential Guide, before getting to cuts on stepwise ascending notes (in this case, F# to G):

'Getting back to our example, to move from F-sharp to G while cutting the G you have to do two very different things simultaneously. You lift B1 off its hole to change notes. At the same time you cut the G with T2. T3 stays on its hole the entire time.

'Stated another way, you lift T2 and B1 at exactly the same moment, i.e. right on the beat, while leaving T3 down. But you replace the cutting finger, T2, immediately while you leave B1 off its hole.'

So guess we can all be happy if you do it your way and I do it mine (FWIW I normally cut G with T3)!

[Mikethebook]

I understand that Peter but you are still starting from the main note with the cut even if you are lifting another finger at the same time. I've written to Grey to see if he has anything else to say regarding his differences with Cotter. It's crucual stuff since it affects rolls too and how we perceived the cut part of them.

[Peter Duggan]

I understand that Peter but you are still starting from the main note with the cut even if you are lifting another finger at the same time.

Can't see where you're getting that from when he clearly describes F# {cut}G and not F# G{cut}G...

[Mr.Gumby]

But it's not Scottish... it's Irish, as described in Geraldine Cotter's Traditional Irish Tin Whistle Tutor:

'The casadh is similar to the cut exept [sic] that the principal note is also part of the ornament'

Fair enough, I made assumptions. A direct translation of 'turn'. It's not a term I have heard used by anyone though. But seeing how Geraldine describes it, it pretty much is what I had in mind.

you are still starting from the main note with the cut even if you are lifting another finger at the same time

Bear in mind there are variables there: from what direction you approach the note, which note you use to cut it etc. Used the B (in my mind coming from d') as an example for a reason.



Mike (and Peter as well), you are really overthinking this, just listen to how something is played and imitate that as best you can. Seeking validation in writers like GL is not the way to go.

[Peter Duggan]

Mike (and Peter as well), you are really overthinking this

With the greatest respect, I'm only trying to demonstrate to Mike that it doesn't have to be his way just because he's got his two impeccable sources...

Seeking validation in writers like GL is not the way to go.

See above.

[cunparis]

Mike (and Peter as well), you are really overthinking this, just listen to how something is played and imitate that as best you can. Seeking validation in writers like GL is not the way to go.

I respectfully disagree. I think this is not only important but very interesting as well. I'm very curious to learn more about it. Please allow us to continue overthinking.

[Mr.Gumby]

I respectfully disagree. I think this is not only important but very interesting as well. I'm very curious to learn more about it. Please allow us to continue overthinking.

What I meant was to say that as a means of learning a simple ornament too much theorising about can become counterproductive. So, from a practical point of view, beware. You can do ofcourse as you please. Not my problem.

[pancelticpiper]

the cut was the grace note (it's not a grace note but let's call it that) plus the main note ...just a blip and involving hardly lifting the A finger.

Yes a cut is a gracenote. Leo Rowsome in his uilleann tutor uses the even more classical-sounding acciaccatura to describe the cut:

The Acciaccatura is a small note, or grace note, played as quickly as possible... in Pipe music the Grace Notes are practically confined to the Acciaccatura, but whereas the Acciaccatura proper is written immedidately above a note, in Pipe music this can be one, two, or more notes above a note... (various) uses of the Acciaccatura has led to certain terms being coined for Pipe music. These briefly are as follows:

The Grace Note: The introduction of the Acciaccatura at the very commencement of a piece. (He writes out four different examples of what we would call "short rolls".)

The Cut: This is intended to cut in on the accented notes of a bar by means of the Acciaccatura. (He writes out an example of melody note High G's being "cut" on the beat by A gracenotes.)

The Roll: Is a combination of the Acciaccatura and the Triplet; practically a Turn." (He writes out what we would call "long rolls" on G, A, and B, but the timing is written as a gracenote upon a triplet.)

Anyhow it's interesting to see what terms one of the leading pipers was using in the 1930s, as strange as some of it sounds to us.

I disagree with the idea of "hardly lifting" the finger. You'll never get clear-sounding cuts that way! For a crisp clear cut, the finger has to lift fully off the hole. It's a common beginner mistake: not having sufficient finger speed to make the cut short enough in duration, the beginner tries to make it shorter by lifting the finger a shorter distance, resulting in a muffled-sounding cut.

A cut can certainly start on the beat, and that's what "short rolls" are: a cut on a beat, followed by a pat. And it's common to emphasise a cut on the beat by using a tongued attack to the cut (but the cut is still legato onto the main note; just the attack of the cut is tongued).

[Peter Duggan]

Cuts not being grace notes is Larsen-speak, for which he has his own justification (basically indefinite pitch + infinitely short duration) and resulting system of notation... but perhaps he doesn't get the classical concept of acciaccatura, which can (on a polyphonic instrument like the piano) be literally 'crushed' on top of (ie simultaneously with) the main note. So (just to prove I don't always agree with Larsen) I'm siding with PCP here!