Tunes - Songs - is there a difference?

[German Whistler]

Not realy "of topic" but i didnt find anotrher better fitting forum.

I got a question:
Many times i read the word "Tune" here. And as far as i see meant is "Song"
Did i miss something?
Does the Word "Tune" has another meaning?
Is ist something typical of ITM?
or...?

[benhall.1]

A song has words and involves someone singing, i.e. using their voice. A tune is simply a melody, whether set to words or not. So, for the most part, what we are interested around here are tunes and not songs, though occasionally we really mean songs, i.e. things with words that people sing.

[German Whistler]

so its a language thing and not an ITM thing right?

but is every instrumental music a tune?
and are songs when just played instrumental without singing possible called tunes?

whats the best word for all, songs, tunes, whatever .... dont say "music" please

[trill]

I nominate "chune"

Seriously though, I'd say there is overlap between the terms "tune" and "song", as explained by behnall.1. There are other near-synonyms, e.g. tune, song, melody, piece, composition, track. Further, I'd add that for most conversations, the distinction isn't crucial. In the world of whistles, "tune" is simply the accepted custom.

[maki]

I think the Irish Traditional folks are very particular about calling lyric-less dance tunes, Tunes.
It makes sense too.
More cultural than language I believe, but then I'm a n00by round here.
And then too, I don't know a thing about other music traditions, Scots, English, etc.

[benhall.1]

so its a language thing and not an ITM thing right?

but is every instrumental music a tune?
and are songs when just played instrumental without singing possible called tunes?

whats the best word for all, songs, tunes, whatever .... dont say "music" please

It's got nothing - or not very much - to do with ITM. The best word? It depends what you want to say. If you want to talk about melodies, whether of songs or of pieces which do not have words and are not sung, then either "melodies" or "tunes" are good words. The word "songs" would not be a good word in that situation. In fact it would simply be incorrect. It should be kept for the combination of tune and words, sung by a singer, which we commonly know as a "song".

Is every instrumental piece of music a tune? Not necessarily. A piece of complicated contrapuntal music, or some Stockhausen, could hardly be referred to as just "tunes".

[cross-post with maki, whose post I will answer next ]

[benhall.1]

I think the Irish Traditional folks are very particular about calling lyric-less dance tunes, Tunes.
It makes sense too.
More cultural than language I believe, but then I'm a n00by round here.
And then too, I don't know a thing about other music traditions, Scots, English, etc.

No, it's a language thing. It is simply incorrect to call something which does not have words and is not sung, a "song". (Unless you're Mendelssohn. )

[German Whistler]

Its so easy in German, We call it "Lied" never mind if it has just a melody or words too, if just hummed or played by an instrument or even an orchestra, its a "Lied".

[Kypfer]

We call it "Lied" never mind if it has just a melody or words too, if just hummed or played by an instrument or even an orchestra, its a "Lied".

... in the English I use that's a tune, the sequence of musical notes. A song is a series of words (usually) sung to a tune (some might argue that's not always the case ... so, a song usually has a tune, but a tune doesn't need a song. A song that is sung unaccompanied still has a tune, even though there's no instrument involved, other than the human voice (some chants might be deemed exempt from this definition)
Just my tuppence worth

[highwood]

I know I posted a reply to this hours - guess it disappeared in the ether...

for ITM:
songs have sung words - nothing to do with the melody,
singing = song
same melody but no words/singing = tune

[Mr.Gumby]

same melody but no words/singing = tune

Or, alternatively, air.

[benhall.1]

same melody but no words/singing = tune

Or, alternatively, air.

Yes. "Air" used to be a synonym of "tune", and still is. But nowadays it has acquired some additional connotations, and is often used to mean the tune of a song, played on a melody instrument.

[Tor]

I recall reading a posting here (I'm not certain about who the poster was, sorry) about tunes vs songs - I think the point was that if it's a "song" (as in: A melody with lyrics) then that puts some constraints on how the melody can be played. You shouldn't change the rhythm and note lengths so that it cannot be sung anymore, i.e. whatever you do with the tune it must still be possible to sing it. If it's a 'tune' (and not a song) then you may be more free in your interpretation.

My interpretation (and blame in case I misunderstood) of course, but it makes sense to me.

-Tor

[Mr.Gumby]

is often used to mean the tune of a song, played on a melody instrument.

I don't think 'air' is specifically used for an instrumental rendition. Air is the tune that belongs to a song. At least that's the way I see it used.

Maybe we should start using 'aire' for tunes played by uninitiated looking for sounds they think 'haunting'.

[benhall.1]

is often used to mean the tune of a song, played on a melody instrument.

I don't think 'air' is specifically used for an instrumental rendition. Air is the tune that belongs to a song. At least that's the way I see it used.

Yes. Agreed. But there is this whole 'slow air' thing, which has, it seems to me, been shortened to 'air' these days. I mean, presonally, I'd rather see 'air' used to mean what it used to mean, i.e. any melody, a synonym of 'tune'. But when people talk about playing 'airs' they are often, nowadays, referring to the playing of song tunes on melody instruments. That's what I was talking about. It's probably the addition of the word 'playing' that alters the meaning, and I left that out before.