Flute Tuning problems

[zipper12]

Hi Everyone,

I have a Martin Doyle flute with a tuning slide and I have been playing for nearly ten years now. I have become reasonably accomplished. Playing in county and provincial competitions. I play in a band and I am constantly made to feel like I'm holding the band back because of my flutes tuning.
The problem has always been there and I know it is a necessary evil in the case of flutes to an extent, however it has gotten to the stage now where I am being told to use another band members Grinter keyed flute (lah dee da....) I am then expected to produce the very same tone and sound as usual with a new flute that is thrust upon me at every practice, and that has keys that I keep annoyingly hitting.
It has gotten to the stage where I have younger band members explaing to me how to tune a flute... and people telling me to "learn the tunes" that I know to near perfection. It is embarassing after all my time practicing. I amn't enjoying playing at all like I used to. I was also expected to be a master at using keys in a new reel last week depite the fact tht I have never used keys before. How long does it take to get used to keys?
People have made insightful comments like "your flute is out of tune with its self..." etc.
I have also been told that since my flute isn't as long as other flutes it is more prone to go out of tune. Does this make any sense? Sometimes my high notes are in tune and my low notes are out after the flute being warmed up etc. Is there any logical explanation for this?
I'd appreciate any "constructive" feedback guys. Unfortunatey as a student living in a country that is stone broke I amn't in the position to invest in a new flute.....I wouldn't get a keyed Grinter anyhows!!!!(sooooo heavy)
Thanks a mill,
Is mise le meas,
Zipper12

Just to clarify, I love my Martin Doyle flute and woudnt' swap it for the world, beautiful flute that is easy to fill.

[jim stone]

If the flute is internally out of tune, Martin D can probably fix that.

[crookedtune]

Could it be something as simple as a poorly adjusted head-joint cork? That would definitely throw things out of whack! Verify that the inside edge is about 20mm from the center of the embouchure hole.

[Jayhawk]

Crookedtune is right to check the headjoint cork position, first. Also do a suck test on the headjoint to make sure the cork isn't leaking and then do one when the flute is put together to see if the joint between the two parts is leaking (cover all tone holes, get someone to cover the end of the flute, and suck like a madman on the embouchure and a vacuum should form...if not, either the tone holes or the end are not covered fully OR there is a leak at the joint).

A Doyle flute should not be out of tune to itself, so I'm guessing something isn't quite right. With a keyless flute, it's either the cork in the headjoint or the seal between the two parts.

As for how long does it take to get used to keys? Well, that depends on how often you use/need them and if you're playing that keyed Grinter between band practices, too.

Eric

[Terry McGee]

zipper12

Can you let us know the nature of the tuning issue you suffer? That might give us an idea of what's going wrong. Maybe you can get one of the other band members with a tuner to measure the notes of the D scale over the two lower octaves? Toss in the middle c note as well.

If that's not an option, download a free tuner from the web, e.g. the Sound Colour Analyser at:

http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html. (You'll need a mic on your computer).

Or record the scale as an .mp3 and send it to me at terry@mcgee-flutes.com.

Presumably your band friends are happy enough when you play the Grinter flute (even if you're not!). So don't be discouraged - you're mostly there. Let's track down what's holding you back. This music is too much fun not to be enjoying it!

Terry

[Mr.Gumby]

I'd suggest first of all to get out of that band.


But you never really mention what the exact problem is, just that you're being told things, and neither do you mention if the problem goes away when you play the Grinter. Some of the things you say however suggest there's an issue a bit beyond a simple hardware problem.

[Steampacket]

It could very well be the cork that is leaking or needs resetting. For example on a Wilkes 19 mm from the end of the cork to the middle of the embouchure hole is recommended. Doyle flutes have a good reputation. Beware of hanging out with people who make you feel bad about yourself, there's no need. Why not record yourself playing some tunes, after you see that the cork is as it should be, and listen to yourself, see what you think, be honest.

"I have also been told that since my flute isn't as long as other flutes it is more prone to go out of tune. Does this make any sense? Sometimes my high notes are in tune and my low notes are out after the flute being warmed up etc. Is there any logical explanation for this?"

Your flute will not go out of tune more often because it is shorter than other flutes, that's rubbish. A cold flute will become sharper as it warms up. All the best

[onewheeldave]

Hi Everyone,

I have a Martin Doyle flute with a tuning slide and I have been playing for nearly ten years now. I have become reasonably accomplished. Playing in county and provincial competitions. I play in a band and I am constantly made to feel like I'm holding the band back because of my flutes tuning.
The problem has always been there and I know it is a necessary evil in the case of flutes to an extent, however it has gotten to the stage now where I am being told to use another band members Grinter keyed flute (lah dee da....) I am then expected to produce the very same tone and sound as usual with a new flute that is thrust upon me at every practice, and that has keys that I keep annoyingly hitting.
It has gotten to the stage where I have younger band members explaing to me how to tune a flute... and people telling me to "learn the tunes" that I know to near perfection. It is embarassing after all my time practicing. I amn't enjoying playing at all like I used to. I was also expected to be a master at using keys in a new reel last week depite the fact tht I have never used keys before. How long does it take to get used to keys?
Last week I was told to "learn the tunes" in front of my little sister who plays the concertina and who has always looked up to me musically. Never felt so down.....
People have made insightful comments like "your flute is out of tune with its self..." etc.
I have also been told that since my flute isn't as long as other flutes it is more prone to go out of tune. Does this make any sense? Sometimes my high notes are in tune and my low notes are out after the flute being warmed up etc. Is there any logical explanation for this?
I'd appreciate any "constructive" feedback guys. Unfortunatey as a veterinary student living in a country that is stone broke I amn't in the position to invest in a new flute.....I wouldn't get a keyed Grinter anyhows!!!!(sooooo heavy)
Thanks a mill,
Is mise le meas,
Zipper12

These people in the band sound overly rude- maybe you should find others to play with. It also sounds like they know little about flutes and are prone to give advice on things they don't understand- I'm specifically refering to their hypothesis that a 'short' flute would be more likely to be out of tune, which is clearly nonsense. (Perhaps there's some prejudice there, in that they want you playing the traditional old-style flutes with the longer foot with the 2 unnecessary (for keyless flutes) extra bottom holes?)

Why not post a short video or sound clip on here, so one of the many experienced flute players here can give you a solid assessment as to what, if any, tuning issues your flute has? Plus, of course, check out the advice already given concerning cork position etc.

Might be worth, if you are going to post a clip, asking in advance what potential listeners want to hear, for example, they may want some kind of music in the background to verify that the flute is in tune, not only with itself, but with an objective external source of music as well.

[Julia Delaney]

This I have been playing for nearly ten years now. I have become reasonably accomplished. Playing in county and provincial competitions. does not carry with it a guarantee of accomplishment. A clip of your playing would be appreciated.

I realize that C&F often functions in place of a musical therapy session. But Martin Doyle is a great friend and a great maker of flutes. The imputation that the Doyle flute itself is out of tune is most likely wrong. I have played a slideless Doyle for years now and the only time the flute is out of tune is because of driver error. Shouldn't a reasonably accomplished player have access to a tuning meter and know to check the position of the cork stopper?

If one person told me that my flute was too short I'd laugh it off. But if several of them told me that I was out of tune my first impulse would be to determine if I were in fact out of tune, and not complain publicly about the meanies with whom I play. I respect the people with whom I play. If several of them critiqued my playing I would take it to heart. Musicians are uncommonly kind and forbearing people. They don't want to hurt other people. My sh*t detector is on full alert here. If they are right it doesn't mean you should be so hurt that you take your ball and go home. It means that you might indeed have some issues with your playing -- whether it is you or your flute -- that should be addressed.

[MTGuru]

It might also help to discuss with your bandmates just what they (and you) think you all mean by "out of tune". The answer to that question is not as obvious as one might think.

[Akiba]

I've found that tuning issues can come not just from the flute but also from the player. Sometimes I've been over-blowing the flute, trying to be loud or carry over a large session or band--this definitely can blow a flute out of tune. Thus, blowing easier and playing softer might help the tuning, then use a mic to amplify your sound in the band. Also, I think one has to play the flute with the maker's intended blow, or style of blowing. This is hard to describe, but I think I play more in tune now that I've started to develop the Irish flute style of getting a more blasting/trumpety kind of sound, a la McGoldrick and many others. I'm told that McGoldrick is not a hard blower, so I suggest trying to get a more blasting tone with using a minimum of air to do so. I know that's a bit nebulous, but it's what I'm working on and doing.

And yes, there's no way you'll play any other flute in tune if you can't play the Doyle, your flute, in tune. Flutes, as with any wind instrument, are hard to play in tune.

[Jayhawk]

Akiba, that's exactly what I'm working on now, too.

I also remembered, while out running errands, that your band mates expected you to play tunes with keys right off. Are the out of tune notes the accidentals you have to half hole on your keyless flute? That could be some of the problem.

Eric

[zipper12]

Hi Guys, thanks for the replies, appreciate it.
I often check the head joint cork position and all seems to be well there. Except for the cork being quite old...it doesn't however appear to be leaking.
In the past cracks have developed between the head joint and the body joint, in the small area over the cork on the body joint they never extend below the cork. I have had these cracks repaired a number of times but they seem to open again inevitably despite careful dismantling of the flute. Could air be leaking here? The connection between the head joint and body joint can also be a tiny bit wobbly.

zipper12

Can you let us know the nature of the tuning issue you suffer? That might give us an idea of what's going wrong. Maybe you can get one of the other band members with a tuner to measure the notes of the D scale over the two lower octaves? Toss in the middle c note as well.

If that's not an option, download a free tuner from the web, e.g. the Sound Colour Analyser at:

http://www1.ocn.ne.jp/~tuner/tuner_e.html. (You'll need a mic on your computer).

Or record the scale as an .mp3 and send it to me at terry@mcgee-flutes.com.

Presumably your band friends are happy enough when you play the Grinter flute (even if you're not!). So don't be discouraged - you're mostly there. Let's track down what's holding you back. This music is too much fun not to be enjoying it!

Terry

Thanks Terry, I'll stick up a clip when I get home I'm down the country working for Christmas. The main tuning problem is that if I tune to a high E for example my low E will be very flat, and likewise the other way around. I understand that this may be a blowing issue, but the problem is far less noticeable/existent when using the Grinter.

This I have been playing for nearly ten years now. I have become reasonably accomplished. Playing in county and provincial competitions. does not carry with it a guarantee of accomplishment. A clip of your playing would be appreciated.

I realize that C&F often functions in place of a musical therapy session. But Martin Doyle is a great friend and a great maker of flutes. The imputation that the Doyle flute itself is out of tune is most likely wrong. I have played a slideless Doyle for years now and the only time the flute is out of tune is because of driver error. Shouldn't a reasonably accomplished player have access to a tuning meter and know to check the position of the cork stopper?

If one person told me that my flute was too short I'd laugh it off. But if several of them told me that I was out of tune my first impulse would be to determine if I were in fact out of tune, and not complain publicly about the meanies with whom I play. I respect the people with whom I play. If several of them critiqued my playing I would take it to heart. Musicians are uncommonly kind and forbearing people. They don't want to hurt other people. My sh*t detector is on full alert here. If they are right it doesn't mean you should be so hurt that you take your ball and go home. It means that you might indeed have some issues with your playing -- whether it is you or your flute -- that should be addressed.

Dear Julia , I amn't claiming to be a brilliant player....and I have enjoyed and loved Martin's flute for the last 10 years, in fact I would prefer it to nearly any other flute I have played. I know that Martin is an absolute gentleman and a brilliant craftsman. I am simply trying to solve my problem, I apologies if that has irritated your "sh*t detector".

[Terry McGee]

Thanks Terry, I'll stick up a clip when I get home I'm down the country working for Christmas.

OK, let me know when it's available!

The main tuning problem is that if I tune to a high E for example my low E will be very flat, and likewise the other way around. I understand that this may be a blowing issue, but the problem is far less noticeable/existent when using the Grinter.

Hmmm. I wonder if Martin is one of the makers who replicates the original tuning of the 19th century models, rather than sanitising it like makers like me? (I'm not sure where Michael Grinter falls in that spectrum.) If that were to be the case, you would need to adopt the same blowing approach used by Irish players of original 19th century flutes. This involves blowing down into the flute with considerable intensity. This forces most of the energy into the 2nd and 3rd harmonics, leaving the flat fundamental starved. Because of an odd psychoacoustic phenomenon, we still recognise it as a very reedy low note, not the octave. Because the tuning as perceived by listeners is based on the sum of the harmonics, the more energy in the harmonics, the less flat the note will appear. Electronic tuners can get a bit confused at this - some look for the fundamental, some look for the loudest harmonic. But tuners that have FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) or Spectrum displays can be helpful in learning how to direct the jet, as you can watch the fundamental weaken. The Shak tuner I mentioned above has such a display. I'd suggest using the FFT Log 0-2700Hz option in the Display menu. The fundamental peaks of the low notes D to G are in the 300-400Hz region. The peak just to their right (600-800) is the 2nd harmonic, with the 3rd harmonics between 900 and 1200Hz.

The experiment in http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Getting_the ... k_tone.htm might help.

Terry

[Nanohedron]

I am simply trying to solve my problem, I apologies if that has irritated your "sh*t detector".

Since it's hard to say exactly where said detector was pointed or how broad a bandwith it is tuned to, in the meantime one could always elect to ignore that part, pinch one's nose, and thereby take the medicine without the odor that the above unfortunate turn of phrase gives things. But do I get how that would be hard to do, at such a turn.

Julia, you said, "Musicians are uncommonly kind and forbearing people. They don't want to hurt other people." That is too easy. "Musicians" is not a set describable by a firm list of personal characteristics. Some are just ego-driven pieces of work, pure and simple. Stipulating that the majority may not WANT to hurt others, nevertheless sometimes individuals like that are poor at being honest and hurt people in the name of trying NOT to hurt them when what they are actually doing is avoiding for themselves what is really at issue. When there are unresolvable conflicts of personal chemistry or whatever having nothing to do with actual music, the music can present a very handy pretext indeed, even to the point of the irrational, instead of the aggrieved facing their real problem. The real issue could be anything from one's personal hygiene, to someone's problems on the home front, to THEM being the ones out of tune, to professional jealousy. Could be anything, even the reality that the simple fact is that you ARE out of tune and don't play well, but that's the minority case in the direction I'm going here. Also, in invoking the music, "It's business, nothing personal" is an easy out that makes the aggrieved feel better; it's an official stance that might mean there's less risk of it being interpreted as petty. The problem is that when you can prove otherwise, the reality surfaces that you just don't fit their vision in any case, and it's time to go. Better to mull over such a waste of otherwise perfectly good time, afterward. I'm not saying that this is the case here, but neither am I making this up out of my imagination; I've seen it around.

Zipper, I do agree that the first place one should look is to oneself. Ask knowledgeable, reliable people outside of the band situation, definitely. Check everything. Meanwhile I have to be honest and also chime in with those that suggest that if it's no fun with that bunch any more and probably never will be, then leaving may be the best thing. Yes, things may be just as the band says, but in partial concordance with Julia's emissions detector, it seems to me that there may be more going on than just a flute, and a Doyle at that.