Lets talk flats and sharps (music theory for dummies)

[brassnebony]

So I have just gotten my hands on my first set of flat uilleann pipes. Pitched in B and made by Joe Kennedy. Very happy to say the least.
I don't know much about music theory and always played tunes by ear or reading music (badly might I add).

First of all how do scales compare to a D chanter, I know the lowest note will be B.

When you are playing a tune and you are fingering the notes with reference to a D chanter technically what scale are you playing in?

Also could somebody please confirm the full scale on a fully keyed B and D chanter.

If anyone has links or can recommend books that might explain this either I would appreciate it.

Cheers

[CHasR]

D B
D# Cn
E C#
Fn D
F# D#
G E
G# Fn
A F#
A# G
B G#
Cn A
C# A#

or if you prefer

D D# E F# G A B Cn C#
B Cn C# D# E F# G# A A# B


on your B set: written & fingered D sounds concert B. Your pipe sounds a minor third lower than what is written. Have fun piping along with the french horns & alto saxes

[Tom_S]

When you are playing a tune and you are fingering the notes with reference to a D chanter technically what scale are you playing in?

Generally what happens with a flat set is that you use the same fingerings for the tunes as you would with a D set, but you just end up playing the whole thing at a lower pitch. A concert pitch chanter is set up to play a D major scale, with the D being the bottom note.

Technically a B set will play a B major scale using the same fingerings, but most flat pipers (as far as I'm aware, although I'm very new to all this myself) will refer to the notes as if they were playing a concert pitch set. This is a similar thing that happens with, for example, the saxophone which are pitched in Bb or Eb, but saxophonists will refer to the notes as if they were a concert pitch instrument.

It's only when you need to play with other instruments that are in a different pitch that you start needing to do conversions. If you're just learning and playing on your own the standard thing to do is to pretend that you've got a concert pitch set and refer to all the notes based on the way you would finger them on a D chanter. If you want to play along with recordings or learn from them, the best thing might be to use computer software to lower the pitch of the tune by 3 semitones if the piper is playing a D set so that you're both at the same pitch.

[ausdag]

It' also good to remember the sequence of intervals in a major scale being - tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone. It's also really good to get familiar with a keyboard to help you visualise this. Essentially each key on a keyboad goes up in semitones, whether it be a white key next to a black key or black key next to a white key or in the case of B and C, and E and F, a white key next to a white key. So every second key is a tone. So for example a D major scale (on a D chanter) would go:

D + tone = E; + tone = F#; plus semitone = G; plus a tone = A; plus a tone = B; plus a tone = C#; plus a semitone = D. So a D major scale is D E F# G A B C# D

So a B major scale (for a chanter starting on B)would go: B + tone = C# (Db); plus a tone = D# (Eb); plus a semitone = E; plus a tone = F# (Gb); Plus a tone = G# (Ab); plus a tone = A# (Bb) plus a semitone = B. So a B major scale (as per your new B set) would be B C# D# E F# G# A# B but played with the same fingerings as for you D chanter.

Here's a picture of a keyboard to refer to (see the third keyboard image):

http://www.piano-keyboard-guide.com/pia ... agram.html

So, for homework, now work out the notes if the chanter started on C.

A word of advice from a blind Blues keyboardist to me once - sit yourself down at a keyboard and spend one sleepless night going over the scales and you'll have it by morning. I never followed his advice, and so I still need to sit and mentally visualise the keyboard and count up when working out a scale.

Once you've worked out the names of each hole on you B chanter or Bb Chanter or C# chanter, then you can more easily talk to musicians of other instruments. Bare in mind that flat chanters are only approximations of the nearest tuning. C can be somwhere sharp or flat of C, a B chanter can be somewhere sharp or flat of B etc.

[brassnebony]

Thanks for the reply guys.

But I'm confused!!!

If E + tone = F # where is the sharp coming from? That is if two semitones separate a full note.

Why isn't it just F

[DjUntzUntz]

because E + semitone = F, but you go a tone up from E = F#, read what ausdag says. It has to do with the sequence of intervals in major scale.
The major scaling is always the same as written by ausdag: tone // tone // semitone // tone // tone // tone // semitone.

so that means in your case (pitched from D): (mind you again, visual the keyboard notes in front of you! going from E to F has no black key in between = semitone up)

D // (1) tone - E // (2) tone - F# // (3) semitone - G // (4) tone - A // (5) tone - B // (6) tone - C // (7) semitone - C# // D

[rorybbellows]

The notes E to F are a natural semitone as is B to C , on a piano they are the only white note that dont have a black note in between.

RORY

[brassnebony]

Ok I got it I can see the sequence in the D scale.... Thanks for the further explanation.

Might sound silly to some people but its just something I never thought about.
Because I never felt I needed to know it. I'm glad I asked the question now though.

Is there anything else you would recommend useful in regards to music theory?

Cheers

[DjUntzUntz]

Seems I can't put up an image? strange...anyway, I made a piano keyboard visual for you (and other people as well if you need it!)
where I filled in the major scale intervals tonally and with grades. Don't you worry about it. nothing to be ashamed off!
It took me a while as well to understand how the different pitches work. You basically use the same fingering scale/chart. The only
difference is the pitch. The C is 1 tone lower, B is 1 1/2 lower. don't start with me about C#/Bb pitches yet. i still have to figure that out.
perhaps this is the right time!

anyway: here is the link for you and everybody else who wants to see it. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/u1eb.jpg/

PS: if anybody could me fix the image for everybody to see in the topic itself, appreciated!

[rorybbellows]

RORY

[DjUntzUntz]

Thanks Rory ! There is some music theory that's important ofc. in what kind of keys tunes can be played, how long do notes take (duration/length), 1 beat, 2 beats, half beat, etc.
Also not unimportant is to get the logics for yourself right that you are basically always able to play in 'concert pitch'. Even with a B and C instrument you can just play the tunes
that you also use for your D set and since the fingering chart/scale is the same.

As soon as other instruments join the party you have to think/care about rewriting your music to fit it with other instruments. If you use the concert pitch
tunes and for example a violist plays it as well, she will play a D when there is a D written in the tune, you on the other hand, will play a B.

So playing a flat set solo is no problem at all. as soon as you wanna/go play with other people you have to start thinking about getting the harmony together.

[billh]

...
Also not unimportant is to get the logics for yourself right that you basically always play in 'concert pitch'. Even with a B and C instrument you can just play the tunes
that you also use for your D set and since the fingering chart/scale is the same you always play 'concert pitch' even with flat sets.

This is very confusingly put.

"Concert pitch", as it is applied to uilleann and union pipes, means simply "bell note is D, tuned relative to modern A=440". Applying it to an instrument whose bell note is not D just confuses newcomers.

Bear in mind that many, if not most, 'flat' sets are not tuned relative to modern concert pitch. Thus a "C" set may play a bell note that is approximately modern C, but it may be well flat of the modern pitch standard (or, rarely, sharp of it).

A person coming from a classical background might say that the 'flat' pipes are "transposing instruments".

- Bill

[DjUntzUntz]

...
Also not unimportant is to get the logics for yourself right that you basically always play in 'concert pitch'. Even with a B and C instrument you can just play the tunes
that you also use for your D set and since the fingering chart/scale is the same you always play 'concert pitch' even with flat sets.

This is very confusingly put.

"Concert pitch", as it is applied to uilleann and union pipes, means simply "bell note is D, tuned relative to modern A=440". Applying it to an instrument whose bell note is not D just confuses newcomers.

Bear in mind that many, if not most, 'flat' sets are not tuned relative to modern concert pitch. Thus a "C" set may play a bell note that is approximately modern C, but it may be well flat of the modern pitch standard (or, rarely, sharp of it).

A person coming from a classical background might say that the 'flat' pipes are "transposing instruments".

- Bill

The text you quoted was merely about the fingering scale/chart, as I have mentioned. it applies to all sets, no matter what pitch. The fingering scale/chart stays the same.
When I was new to uilleann piping (I still am, for sure) I found it hard to understand how the different pitches worked. after a while though I figured out that the fingering chart/scale
stays the same, no matter the pitch. So if you have a tune that you wanna play for your D set, you might be able to play it on the C/B set as well because the fingering stays the same. The pitch will just sound lower than concert pitch D (already said i'm taking my hands off the C#/Bb discussion since I don't know anything about that). I fully agree with you that flat pipes can be called transposing instruments, but if I take another good look at my words, i'm kinda saying that purely talking about the fingering, not tonally. but it might've been a bit confusing since I push to much into 'always able to', probably not as black-white as that

[NicoMoreno]

What is confusing is saying "always play in concert pitch". This is wrong. You should say "always able to play with the same fingering as a concert pitch set".

And yes, that's what transposing is - you read, write, and talk about the notes as if it is a concert pitch instrument, but in reality the sounds that come out are in a different pitch.

[benhall.1]

The fingering scale/pitch stays the same.

What's confusing is that that statement is not true. As you later say yourself. The fingering of course is the same across sets of different pitches, but, as you later say, but not in this statement, the pitch is different.

You say you found it hard to understand. I'm not convinced you've 'got it' yet. It will be worth your while listening to what people like NicoMoreno say and working on it a bit more until you really do 'get it'. Just a little bit more ...