Why cocus?

[jim stone]

My impression, fwiw, from playing a cocus flute is that cocus tends to have a clear and bright sound.
Others have said this, too, in other threads.

[kkrell]

My impression, fwiw, from playing a cocus flute is that cocus tends to have a clear and bright sound.
Others have said this, too, in other threads.

I'll disagree, in THIS thread.

[keithsandra]

An experienced restorer told me my cocus flutes have a fat of their own, even after all this time since they were made in the mid 1800's. He says they don't need oiling. So all I've been doing is cleaning out the bore after playing them, then buffing them up with a cloth. They just shine. Can't keep my hands off them.

Another experienced flute player told me African blackwood is impervious to oiling, but I oil them anyway to get that rich shiny look. They seem to play easier immediately after oiling. (Or is that the shiny car syndrome when the car seems to go better when it's squeaky clean?).

Best wishes,

Keith.

[libraryman]

Sometimes when I oil a flute that is going good, it sets it back and sometimes when I oil a flute that seems kind of finicky, it brings it to life and sometimes it seems to make no difference at all. I just haven't found that oiling is going to do this or that for sure.

Kevin. I'm slow-witted. I saw your comment, but didn't understand what you were disagreeing with. My guess was that cocus is usually described more as "dark" sounding and you didn't agree with the "bright" description. But maybe you just do not like it all that much. Just curious.

[kkrell]

Kevin. I'm slow-witted. I saw your comment, but didn't understand what you were disagreeing with. My guess was that cocus is usually described more as "dark" sounding and you didn't agree with the "bright" description. But maybe you just do not like it all that much. Just curious.

Yes, I don't agree with "bright". I expect more of a dark sound, which I prefer, and is what I have most experienced in flutes I have played and heard. Not to say I haven't been satisfied with blackwood instruments that achieve a similar tone.

[libraryman]

Kevin. Thanks for clarifying. I have several cocus flutes and agree with you. But I'm not really good enough to have my own sound or anything and I like other woods too. For me, changing woods is a bit like having a tone control on an electric guitar. Sometimes I like the sound to be a bit brighter and other times darker. But in listening to others, I'm generally more drawn to the players who have what might be described as a very rich full sound and most of the big names do at least to my ears.

[an seanduine]

I want to thank Terry for his page on cocuswood. I must ask if anyone is seriously attempting to properly identify the various woods used on historical examples, given the variability in the naming and sourcing of "cocuswood"? Perhaps microscopic examination of slips from 'wrecks'? Without a solid 'chain of custody' from botanical identification of the living tree to the manufactured flute, we seem to only be left with destructive methods for identification. I wonder if MRI technology can give us enough insight into the micro-structure of various woods for positive identification.
I know a certain amount of uncertainty exists about the 'boxwood' R.L. Mealy used, since he sourced much of his wood from old spools and bobbins in the linen factories, which in turn were most often made from dunnage from overseas.


Bob

[kkrell]

Kevin. Thanks for clarifying. I have several cocus flutes and agree with you. But I'm not really good enough to have my own sound or anything and I like other woods too. For me, changing woods is a bit like having a tone control on an electric guitar. Sometimes I like the sound to be a bit brighter and other times darker. But in listening to others, I'm generally more drawn to the players who have what might be described as a very rich full sound and most of the big names do at least to my ears.

I do appreciate a variety of tone from the different players/different flutes. The tone I'm most attracted to personally, though, is that of Tom McElvogue on his CD "The Long Hard Road".

[monkeymonk]

Yes, I don't agree with "bright". I expect more of a dark sound, which I prefer, and is what I have most experienced in flutes I have played and heard. Not to say I haven't been satisfied with blackwood instruments that achieve a similar tone.

Are you saying that there are tonal differences between blackwood and cocus that can be appreciated by the listner?

[Terry McGee]

I want to thank Terry for his page on cocuswood. I must ask if anyone is seriously attempting to properly identify the various woods used on historical examples, given the variability in the naming and sourcing of "cocuswood"? Perhaps microscopic examination of slips from 'wrecks'? Without a solid 'chain of custody' from botanical identification of the living tree to the manufactured flute, we seem to only be left with destructive methods for identification. I wonder if MRI technology can give us enough insight into the micro-structure of various woods for positive identification.
I know a certain amount of uncertainty exists about the 'boxwood' R.L. Mealy used, since he sourced much of his wood from old spools and bobbins in the linen factories, which in turn were most often made from dunnage from overseas.

Not aware of any new techniques for identification, but I haven't tried recently. Last time I did any, they needed a thin sliver of endgrain, which is not easy to come by on a flute without incurring the wrath of the owner (the inner end of the cap is about the only possibility). Earlier MRI systems didn't offer a particularly high resolution, but that's possibly changed.

Terry

[Terry McGee]

These discussions on tone are always so dependant upon language and our interpretation of it. Darker, lighter, brighter, richer, thinner, fuller, etc. I think it would be really interesting for us to compare our reactions to a few different recordings to see if there is any basis for agreement or if it all falls into the "ear of the beholder" category. We would need to find a few recordings easily accessible via the Web by anybody, then ask listeners to rank them in order of desirable tone colour. Ideally, they would be unaccompanied recordings so we can concentrate fully on the flute. Airs and slow tunes give the listener longer to consider the finer points, but that might not be possible. Modern recordings would be safer than early recordings with possibly limited frequency response. Any suggestions?

Terry

[brad maloney]

I agree Terry

Different designs and players can make a much bigger difference than the material.

I thought delrin was utter crap for years until I got to play a delrin flute with a good design, I'm not fond of many of the popular makers designs (chimney height is too high - and it stifles the resonance).

But I digress...

Oiling is misunderstood, it doesn't really help blackwood from cracking and blackwood has about as high as a oil content as cocus (and other true rosewoods). Oiling does make the bore more reflective, both for light and for sound, making it play a bit better... 'til the oil goes away.

[Gordon]

Personally, I think our use of language is fine, as long as we use follow-up descriptors for the more ambiguous words. "Dark" is ambiguous, unless followed-up with what the user means by it. Jim's "clear and bright" was not really all that ambiguous - it implies a bell-like clarity of sound - unless, of course, that's not what he meant. So I agree with Kevin's disagreement. If that is what Jim meant, I'm not sure cocus, then, is any more capable of clear and bright than blackwood, or, for that matter, Delrin - maybe more-so than boxwood, but that's not always true, either - really depends on both the flute itself (its maker, embouchure, bore, witchcraft, etc.), and - most significantly, the player.

That some very, very good flutes were made from cocus says more about the sound now associated with the wood than the wood itself.

[jim stone]

Yes, I think you pretty well capture what I mean, except 'bell like clarity' is a bit more clear and bright than I had in mind.
For me, blackwood has a darker sound. I don't particularly prefer one to the other; also I rather think that this may be
a matter of what's heard 'under the ear' of the musician, more than the audience.

Anyhow some people have remarked in this thread that, all other things being equal, they prefer playing cocus to
blackwood. It would be interesting if they would say why.

[keithsandra]

I thought the scientific evidence was in that the material the fute's made of doesn't matter??????

Best wishes,

Keith.