Stirring the pot on the Unspoken "Forum Rules"

[sherriev]

This is exactly what I mean.

My playing does not stink, because I can actually keep rhythm, tell when I'm out of tune (oh god people listen to yourself) and how to play in a group without causing problems.

The idea that if I don't slur, tongue, roll or tap as is prescribed by someone else is awful. Isn't it about enjoying yourself and making music? That being said, I'm trying to work those things in, I'm just not there yet. It's like knowing how to draw a figure, but haven't managed to draw just like Picasso (and his students) yet.

It is very difficult to be a beginner on this forum and not feel discouraged.

Not trying to hijack, but this is definitely one of the 'unwritten' currents on this forum.

[MTGuru]

OK, sherrie, my apologies. I'm sorry for trying to offer constructive advice to a stranger. I'm sure your playing is great. Carry on doing what you're doing. Ornaments are silly, so don't worry about them. Warm and fuzzy is what's it's all about. I hope that's less discouraging. Good luck! Next.

(But sometimes it is very difficult to be an experienced player on this forum and not feel discouraged.)

[Ben Steen]

Smooth move, sherrie. Personally I have a difficult time accepting that my playing is good enough I don't need to work on the things I haven't yet learnt (though it obviously bothers me) but instead focus only on my achievments. Rather I should accept my own playing w/out judgement.

[whistle1000]

It is very difficult to be a beginner on this forum and not feel discouraged

A beginner on this forum? A beginner whistle player?... You say you play fairly well, good rhythm etc. So you're new (a beginner) to the forum? If you play fairly well et al, you're free play whatever you feel like playing. But, if a beginner whistle player, back-up a little and enjoy the advice you are being given. It's free and it has great value!

[Mr Ed]

The idea that if I don't slur, tongue, roll or tap as is prescribed by someone else is awful. Isn't it about enjoying yourself and making music?

The thing is, it's traditional music, so things are handed down and carried on. Even if it weren't, there are still norms and standards for any style of music.

Enjoying yourself and making music are good things, but dues have to be paid to get good at it.

It is very difficult to be a beginner on this forum and not feel discouraged.

I can relate. The plus side of it is though (after it finally got through my skull) there are a lot of experienced players who do want to help us relative newbies to ITM/tin whistle.

[cboody]

This is exactly what I mean.

My playing does not stink, because I can actually keep rhythm, tell when I'm out of tune (oh god people listen to yourself) and how to play in a group without causing problems.

The idea that if I don't slur, tongue, roll or tap as is prescribed by someone else is awful. Isn't it about enjoying yourself and making music? That being said, I'm trying to work those things in, I'm just not there yet. It's like knowing how to draw a figure, but haven't managed to draw just like Picasso (and his students) yet.

It is very difficult to be a beginner on this forum and not feel discouraged.

Not trying to hijack, but this is definitely one of the 'unwritten' currents on this forum.

Great skills to have Sherri, and you are to be congratulated for having them. But, playing in any tradition requires an understand of the requirements of the tradition. It is that understanding that shapes the music and makes it live, and that is as true for the classical violinist approaching a Bach piece as it is for an Irish Trad player approaching Kesh Jig. Also true in both those traditions is that the rules are generalities. No fine violinist approaches the details of the Bach by slavishly copying others. No player of Irish Trad does that with their tradition either.

And, I don't think anyone here suggested you should precisely copy someone else. What they said is the the "ornaments" in Irish Trad are part of the style, and not an add on. They did not say everyone does it the same way. You grow into it by learning the skills and then listening a lot and trying to add things where they make sense to you. It sounds to me as though you are doing that. Great. Don't be discouraged, do listen to these folks, you'll soon figure out which ones to listen to and which to ignore. It will help you down the road...

[ubizmo]

I still consider myself a beginner to the Irish trad music, since I've only been playing it and intently listening to it for under two years. It can be discouraging anyway, apart from what anyone says on this forum. There's so much to learn.

Even so, I regard the opinions expressed here, whether gently or stridently, as a resource. I have my own opinions, but I learn things from what others say, even when I disagree. To take one example: I'm not inclined to try to tongue every note, as some do who come to the whistle from certain other instruments. But here on C&F I read a number of comments directed at new players, suggesting they try playing tunes in a completely legato style, interrupting the flow only to take a breath, just as an exercise. This seemed like an odd thing to me, since I didn't think I'd every actually play a tune that way. And in fact I don't play tunes that way, but I do find it a very valuable exercise for getting the "flow" of a tune into my head. Then I can use tonguing or other ornaments to phrase it the way I want.

Sometimes things people say here cause me to look at the music, or the whistle, a little differently. This is good.

Personally, I do sometimes try to copy the way someone else plays a tune, exactly, just so I can feel what it's like to play it that way. I learned "Fig for a Kiss" by copying the playing in [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C87kcQeXL0cthis video[/url], because I love the way she uses the little bursts of staccato to accent the tune. I play it differently now, but I can try to use that same technique in other tunes. I hope.

[highland-piper]

Threads like this make me glad I'm mostly interested in playing Scottish music on tin whistle. It's common enough to be part of the tradition, but rare enough that no one seems to care much about how you do it.

Interesting someone upthread mentioned violinists and Bach. There is a Russian violinist name Gringolts or some such. He recorded some of the Bach solo works and made a point of not listening to other violinist's approaches. There is no big tradition of playing Bach in Russia. What he ended up with is a very non-traditional recording, but I like it a lot. My wife, a violinist, says it's all wrong.

[pancelticpiper]

if I don't slur, tongue, roll or tap as is prescribed by someone else

This strikes at the heart of something that comes up often in the Irish Traditional Music scene here in the USA.

I don't want it to come off like an attack on anybody! And I'm struggling with just how to word it.

When I began trying to play the uilleann pipes, flute, and whistle, I came to it with the understanding/assumption that I was completely ignorant, and moreover an outsider. I did my best to discover how the people within the tradition played, and copy it as best I could. I tried to be a blank slate. I accepted everything 'the old guys' did at face value. These guys were the tradition and embodied what I was attempting to emulate. The last thing I could imagine was to try to impose my own preconceived notions upon what I was hearing. When I was asked to teach workshops I was always very careful to distinguish between "me" and "they" as in "this is the way you'll usually hear them do this" rather than "this is the way I do this". The latter would be presumptive; I can never be a true part of the living tradition. I would have to be raised in Ireland, in a musical milieu, for that.

So I found it strange and shocking to run into Americans who played Irish music who took a completely different attitude: that they, not the tradition, knew best; that any aspect of the tradition could be ignored or changed; that in fact the tradition had defects that a clever American could fix. This first struck me, many years ago, when I attended a workshop given by a famous player well known to everybody here (who shall be nameless). He said he didn't care how traditional Irish players did things, that on his own he invented better ways. And he has a book out which purports to teach "traditional Irish ______" !

Thing is, there's a deeply ingrained suspicion of tradition here. The very thing said above, "as prescribed by somebody else", is the very heart of it. How dare anybody tell me how to play! I'm free to do what I want! Thing is, it's not 'somebody', it's a tradition. You can either choose to play traditional music, or not.

Rant over! Sorry.

[ytliek]

Well, let's stir the pot briskly and bend the rules. Here's a couple of my favorite whistle tunes, trad or not, ornamented or not, and if they could just get rid of all those other (ornamental) instruments, I'd prefer a whistle solo!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODm6SYw1bsY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWj034v0TvE

There are other tunes as well. Enjoy!

[highland-piper]

So I found it strange and shocking to run into Americans who played Irish music who took a completely different attitude: that they, not the tradition, knew best; that any aspect of the tradition could be ignored or changed; that in fact the tradition had defects that a clever American could fix.

Liz Carroll has some really interesting insights on this topic, which she shared in an interview:

We were hearing things on albums coming out of Ireland say, with a little bit of Bluegrass and we would be joking about that in Chicago. We might record ourselves doing it but we would never think of putting it on an album and would not think of putting it on a stage because we'd go "that wouldn't be traditional".

I think the Irish led the way as soon as they heard other stuff they were comfortable with the fact that "no matter what I play, I am Irish." So they didn't have this confusion going on, where we were going "if we do that, we're not Irish" or whatever we wanted to be.

It's worth reading the whole interview, and especially the broader context that I copied that out of:

http://thistleradio.com/index.php?optio ... &Itemid=69

[Michael Anderson]

First off, I want to say that it isn't just Americans, but it sort of embodies a certain attitude prevalent among many Americans and cultures heavily influenced by US culture, and it goes like this:

MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME!!!

Respect and humility are dying in our culture (and as a Canadian I have no problem saying "our" culture), and anyone who leaves their house at least once a week knows this and experiences it firsthand. I don't want to flog a dead horse, but it's the influence of the pop music industry in the case of musicians, this faux democratization of art that tells us anyone can be a star, everyone is magically imbued with the ability to transform any piece of music into something genuinely fresh and "theirs", regardless of lack of chops or understanding of the musical form being altered.

What utter crap. As for the Corrs - no offense ytliek, but really? If this is your idea of Irish music, then I fell badly for you because you've somehow missed the real thing with all its honesty, soul, and roots. The Coors are a pop band and their music has been run through (tip of the hat to Woody Allen) the Flavor Remover. That plastic-sounding boring unornamented fiddle - agh! Drum kit and piano...Jesus wept. Sorry man, but I don't get it.

[Steve Bliven]

As for the Corrs - no offense ytliek, but really? ....Sorry man, but I don't get it.

But if I was to be stranded on a desert island with just one whistler for a companion—who would I choose, Andrea Corr or Mr. Gumby? Hmmmm.

Best wishes.

Steve

[Mr.Gumby]

Oy! I heard that.

[ytliek]

As for the Corrs - no offense ytliek, but really? ....Sorry man, but I don't get it.

But if I was to be stranded on a desert island with just one whistler for a companion—who would I choose, Andrea Corr or Mr. Gumby? Hmmmm.

Best wishes.

Steve

I'm with you Steve on that one!

@Michael Anderson, you missed the point entirely about stirring the pot and bending rules. I may be newbie-ish whistling, but, I've been around enough Irish Trad to discern the old from the new and can appreciate an expanded view of music in general.

@highland-piper, thank you for posting the entire Liz Carroll interview. That ought to be a must read for everyone.