Seeking low whistle advice

[wayne_rowley]

Hello,

I have been playing whistles for a couple of years and have (slowly) been improving. I would now like to spend some time focussing on developing my skills with the low D. I currently have a Dixon polymer low D. I have played it on and off but never really got to grips with it. I do have very small hands with slender fingers and have struggled, even with pipers grip to consistently cover the bottom two holes. I can play it, but tire quickly and often end up with painful fingers or wrist, and frustrated at the frequent unclean notes!

As I said though I want to spend time improving specifically on the low whistle. I am thinking of getting a different low whistle, for a number of reasons. Although the dixon is nice, it is very quiet. I sometimes play in the worship group at church and just cannot hear myself (sometimes with the high d let alone the low). I would like something louder for when I feel comfortable enough to play the low D at church. The other reason is tone. My favourite low D tone is the 'Overton' sound. The dixon is nice but not quite there, and there is little scope for expression - it jumps octave quickly when breath changes. I will keep the Dixon as a practice whistle anyway.

I have researched whistles online but cannot easily try them in person. I am interested in Goldie, Mk, chieftain or the Onyx ( left field ).

My questions (finally I hear you say):

- Given my hand size issues would a Goldie be impracticable or too hard to master? I am willing to practice, but if he the laws of physics just won't allow me to play it well then I wonder whether if would be the right choice.

- What is the difference between soft blow and hard blow? I don't want a whistle that takes too much breath, but I want expression that responds to breath without jumping octaves straight away

- What about Mk as an alternative, is the fingering easier ?

- I am interested in Chieftain, they are cheaper, but I think possibly too quiet like the Dixon?

- The Walt Sweet Onyx is left field. I think I might find the fingering easier. It is fairly loud, but doesn't have the Overton sound. Should I consider this though - is it expressive?

Any advice welcome. I'm in no rush to buy as I want to get it right.

Thanks,
Wayne

[BigDavy]

Hi Wayne

I am in the slender finger group, All of Overton style low D whistles (that includes Goldies and Chieftains) have holes I have difficulty sealing due to the width of my fingers. The lowest I can play is the Eb.

The easiest low D I have found for my type of hand is the Dixon TB012D as it is conical bore, the holes are smaller and the bottom ones closer together. The one problem is that it is relatively quiet.

I can say that the MKs are playable with my hand structure and will be louder than the Dixon, both of mine are, but they play very differently from each other.

The other low Ds I have that my fingers fit are a Burke and an Impempe, if you are counting the pennies and can get one (Ian Turnbull is no longer making them) then an Impempe is a good choice. The Burke is a bit more problematic, I can play it, but the F# hole (the second bottom) is about at the limit of sealability for me.

One other choice could be a Howard low D, I have the low C and can play it, so the D could suit (I have never played a Howard low D, only my low E and low C, so this is surmise on my part).

David

[Sirchronique]

The conical polymer Dixon is about the easiest on the hands of any low D there is. I think more practice is needed, or perhaps more practice sessions of less length of time. Although, being 6"3 I have pretty long fingers, mine are also extremely slender. It's common for people who start low whistle to think that it's impossible for them because of some physiological abnormality, but it isn't.. it just takes time and practice. I was that way at first, and now I can play any low D just as easy as any high D. Perhaps modify your grip a bit, and find what is comfortable for you.

If you are using pipers grip and your hands hurt, there is another possibility- Are you clenching the whistle too hard? Sometimes, in an effort to seal the holes, beginners will squeeze too tightly. Don't do this! Work on only applying a very gentle force to the holes, and if you are getting leaks you need to change your hand position so the holes are covered, and *not* squeeze harder. This may take some patience, and might require you to start at square one. Just go through playing all of the notes until you can do it without squeezing hard, and take it slowly.

[retired]

Wayne - I think your best bet is to try different whistles yourself and see what works for you. A number of shops and manufacturers will allow you to return whistles that don't fit your needs, then you're just out the postage. Also you can buy used and sell them at a small loss if you don't care for them. Reason I say the above is there is no substitute for trying them yourself given the number of diffferent concerns you have. Good luck.

[Sirchronique]

Wayne - I think your best bet is to try different whistles yourself and see what works for you. A number of shops and manufacturers will allow you to return whistles that don't fit your needs, then you're just out the postage. Also you can buy used and sell them at a small loss if you don't care for them. Reason I say the above is there is no substitute for trying them yourself given the number of diffferent concerns you have. Good luck.

I do strongly agree that the best solution when choosing an instrument is to try out several for yourself to see what works for you. However, I'm not so sure that is a good solution in this particular situation. If a person can't cover the bottom two holes on a conical low whistle with small holes, I am not so sure they will be able to cover the holes on any other low D whistle with inline holes. I think the solution is to learn to play on the Dixon low D before trying anything like a Goldie, because if a person can't handle an easier low D, they will not be able to handle a more difficult one. Trying another low D that is more difficult will not make the problem go away.

However, another solution might be to try something like a low E, and slowly work your way down to a low D. Perhaps moving down in increments will make it easier.

[Feadoggie]

I currently have a Dixon polymer low D. I have played it on and off but never really got to grips with it. I do have very small hands with slender fingers and have struggled, even with pipers grip to consistently cover the bottom two holes. I can play it, but tire quickly and often end up with painful fingers or wrist, and frustrated at the frequent unclean notes!

I believe you have said that you have the TB003 in previous posts. Is that right? If so, then you already have one of the better low D whistles for hole size and finger spread issues. The only other Dixon that has smaller holes and a low spread is the DX035. The DX035 is basically a whistle head on the three piece Dixon delrin flute body. It will be quiet but it has small holes and the left and right hand sections are seperate so you can rotate them as you see fit to ease discomfort in the wrists. The DX035 is considerably more expensive than the TB003 and considerably more stout as well.

currently have a Dixon polymer low D. I have played it on and off but never really got to grips with it. I do have very small hands with slender fingers and have struggled, even with pipers grip to consistently cover the bottom two holes. I can play it, but tire quickly and often end up with painful fingers or wrist, and frustrated at the frequent unclean notes! ...
The dixon is nice but not quite there, and there is little scope for expression - it jumps octave quickly when breath changes.

I think you need to spend more time with the Dixon. Much of what you describe may be related to you not yet being comfortable with the Super Duper EZ grip. You need to get to a point where your hands are relaxed and not under stress. That can take some time, practice and patience. A Dixon low D can be plenty expressive in experienced hands. Now some of your issues may have to do with your finger size and covering the holes. But IME the Dixon can have a decent dynamic range given the (comparatively) lower volume. So, in my opinion, it may not be the Dixon whistle that is limiting you. Time, patience and practice can improve a lot of whistles.

My favourite low D tone is the 'Overton' sound.

Given my hand size issues would a Goldie be impracticable or too hard to master? I am willing to practice, but if he the laws of physics just won't allow me to play it well then I wonder whether if would be the right choice.

What is the difference between soft blow and hard blow? I don't want a whistle that takes too much breath, but I want expression that responds to breath without jumping octaves straight away

You should be talking to Colin Goldie, not us here on the board. He will be able to best answer your concerns given that he's the guy making the whistle with the sound you want these days.

You might also consider the Kerry Optima. It has smaller holes than the other Chieftains AFAIK. It is pretty economical on air requirements too - but that is all relative. It sound quite good but perhaps not as cosmic as the Goldie. But you might like the sound more than your Dixon.

Lastly. I make whistles. I have worked with quite a few players to fit a whistle to their individual hands. Long slender fingers do present a problem in some cases. In those cases the fingers are just too slim to cover the larger holes of the typical a low D (BH2 being the tough nut). We don't have your hands here to advise you definatively. So it is rather impossible to prescribe a solution on hole coverage without seeing your hands playing a low D whistle. I have had to tell a small number of players with long, slender fingers forget the low D and try the flute. But, even after having said that, the vast majority of players have enough tissue on the finger joints to seal the holes. So it is not unusual to meet a player that thinks their fingers are too slim to cover the holes but after some tutoring and adjustments get them to a comfortable playing position.

Don't give up on the Dixon just yet. Relax when you practice. Remember it is called "playing" for a reason.

Feadoggie

[retired]

Good point Chris. Wayne - re your grip - as you play the whistle are all your fingers straight on the whistle ? If you're playing with any of your fingtertips on the holes, you may want to revisit illustrations of 'pipers grip'

[AngelicBeaver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1HlTNaVgg4

There's a part in this video where Colin explains the difference between soft and hard blowing whistles. It's a cool video. Harder blowing whistles have a thinner slot through which you push the air, making it harder to push a lot of air through, like a narrow straw vs. a larger diameter straw. Brian Finnegan prefers harder blowing whistles, according to Colin, so you can listen to his stuff to get an idea of what the harder blowing sound sounds like.

The "A" whistle in this video is a very hard blowing whistle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFgU0lN_d_A


Most whistles I've encountered have been very soft blowing compared to anything from Colin Goldie. Very little backpressure. A hard blowing whistle will have higher backpressure and will really feel like it's pushing back as you blow. I really like that sensation as I play. Some people don't.


As far as the hole size, the Chieftain V3 I own has the largest hole of any whistle I've played (second from the bottom).

The Onyx I tried had very closely spaced holes, and felt like the goal of the whistle was to make a whistle that sounded like a flute for those who didn't want to learn to play a flute. It's a very heavy whistle, being made of solid delrin. The one thing that made me resell it was the E would break into half tones very very easily. It could be because the last hole was so tiny, but if I tongued at all on a second octave E, the whistle would kick into whatever half note you can get on any D whistle ("A" maybe?). Very interesting whistle, but too fiddly in that area for my comfort. If you don't tongue much, it might work better.

You might also see if your wrists are kinked when you try the piper's grip. When I play, my wrists are almost completely straight. They never bother me.

Sorry for the disjointedness of this post. I'm heading for bed and my mind is a bit wandersome.

[wayne_rowley]

If you are using pipers grip and your hands hurt, there is another possibility- Are you clenching the whistle too hard? Sometimes, in an effort to seal the holes, beginners will squeeze too tightly. Don't do this! Work on only applying a very gentle force to the holes, and if you are getting leaks you need to change your hand position so the holes are covered, and *not* squeeze harder. This may take some patience, and might require you to start at square one. Just go through playing all of the notes until you can do it without squeezing hard, and take it slowly.

Thanks, I certainly do need more practice. I probably am gripping to hard. I also find that my thumb is uncomfortable supporting the whistle because it is on its side, ie supporting side on rather than end on. But despite the pictures which show it supported pad-up under the middle pictures, my thumb does not reach, so I support side, on under the second finger, which is not comfortable.

Wayne

[wayne_rowley]

Good point Chris. Wayne - re your grip - as you play the whistle are all your fingers straight on the whistle ? If you're playing with any of your fingtertips on the holes, you may want to revisit illustrations of 'pipers grip'

Thanks. Definitely pipers grip, I have no chance otherwise. On my right hand the top of the three holes is covered by the second joint as I really have to twist my hand up to cover the holes, and also to be able support the wishtle with my thumb. My little finger doesn't reach!

Wayne

[wayne_rowley]

Don't give up on the Dixon just yet. Relax when you practice. Remember it is called "playing" for a reason.

Feadoggie

Thanks Feadoggie. Not giving up, just need some advice. The problem with being self taught is that it can hard to self correct. As I said though the Dixon is fine for home practice. I'm just not sure how much effort to put into the low if I'm not ultimately going to be able to play the instruments that give me the sound I like. I do realise that it's too early to tell, and it's all to easy to go back to the high whistle where the results/ rewards are more immediate.

So I'll keep on keeping on for now!

[wayne_rowley]

You might also see if your wrists are kinked when you try the piper's grip. When I play, my wrists are almost completely straight. They never bother me.

Sorry for the disjointedness of this post. I'm heading for bed and my mind is a bit wandersome.

Thanks. When you say kinked do you mean vertically or horizontally? As far as I recall they are not vertically kinked, but I push my hand to the right so that I can rotate my fingers to cover the holes. Would that be part if the problem?

It might be worth pointing out that I suffer from eczema on some of my fingers on my right hand. The results are that the skin tends to be slightly thicker and less sensitive, and I wonder if that might be an issue when detecting hole coverage? I did try a Chieftain v3 in a shop a little while ago, though not for long. It seemed, mentally 'easier' to find the holes, and I wondered if the material was the factor?

Wayne

[Blower]

If money is no object, Phil Bleazey's Low D has small finger holes and when I tried one a year or so ago they were very easy to cover compared to the Dixon cylindrical bore I had at the time. I eventually bought the MK which I'm fairly used to now but have to say the Bleazey was easier, even for my fingers which aren't particularly slender. Too pricey for me though!

[pancelticpiper]

I agree with what everybody has been saying.

The Dixon all-poly conical-bore whistle is the most ergonomic lower-priced whistle I've played, feather-light, narrow tube, and closely-set holes.

To get the lowerhand holes close together you really need a conical bore, because the constriction of the bore has a flattening effect meaning that the holes can be higher on the tube and closer together to achieve the same pitches.

Here's Bleazey whistles from the Bleazey site. They appear to be the body of a wooden conical-bore flute married to the head of a recorder, more or less



I've not played one. I have played a Sweet Low D which was more or less the same idea, and the low notes were (for me) unacceptably feeble (to be fair, it was one single whistle, not a very good sample size!)

Here they are from the Sweetheart site



Nigel Richard and Jon Swayne both make whistles along those lines.

Here's a Garvie (Nigel Richard) whistle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v641Cjt8BJE

Here's a Jon Swayne

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vhZ55euj94

For metal conical-bore Low Ds, there's Copeland. I've played fantastic 1980s Copeland Low Ds and poor recent ones, so you have to try each whistle. Or Shaw, which is like a giant Clarke.

Cylindrical-bore whistles need to have wider spacing and bigger holes because they don't have the flattening effect on the lowhand notes that a conical whistle has. If you make the lowehand holes small and close together you get a poor-playing whistle. If you put several top-playing cylindrical-bore Low Ds together on a table you'll see they all have the holes more or less alike. Currently I have Low Ds from Burke, MK, and Reyburn, all great players, and all with similar hole configurations. There's a reason!