Susato low whistles

[Geebawn]

Hi everyone!

I am thinking of ordering a Susato low D whistle. I have heard that they have good volume, nice tuning (which is the most important thing for me as the majority of whistles I was playing was out of tune) and a clear tone. However I have read many threads on this forum where people were complaining on the hole spacings and the sound being unstable in the second octave. Because of the fact the far/close notions are quite subjective - can anyone who has Susato low D measure the distance between the first and the third hole; and the fourth and the sixth one? Or could you just compare this whistle to some others that you have. Secondly, could you explain what is wrong with the second octave of Susato?

Glad to find this forum. Best wishes from Poland!

[Feadoggie]

Welcome to the neighborhood.

.

However I have read many threads on this forum where people were complaining on the hole spacings and the sound being unstable in the second octave. Because of the fact the far/close notions are quite subjective - can anyone who has Susato low D measure the distance between the first and the third hole; and the fourth and the sixth one? Or could you just compare this whistle to some others that you have. Secondly, could you explain what is wrong with the second octave of Susato?

I've owned the Susato low D and found it to be a good whistle. It was my main low D for several years.

I sold it some time ago so I can't provide measurements but... I have also owned and played a lot of other low D whistles. The Susato compares well to those I have owned (too many to mention). Hole spacing on any whistle is a matter of physics and of the maker making some decisions and compromises between hole size and stretch. The one thing that is most obvious on the Susato to me was the size of the BH2 hole (bottom hand, second hole). It is larger than any other low D I have owned and slightly elongated/oval to boot. That requires a good sized finger to seal. But I could play it just fine. I have smallish hands (for a man)too. The span was fine for me using the Super Duper EZ grip. The overall stretch was somewhat average to my experience. So unless you have very slim fingers you should be able to handle it. Now Susato tends to employ a large(ish) BH2 hole on most of their whistles regardless of the key. So it is likely something that they feel provides the best venting for the F# (relative to D scale) note.

I found no issues at all with the second octave. Really! It was quite pleasant to play up there IMO. It takes some breath to get there but I expected that - it was not anything out of the realm of ordinary to me at the time. Provided you keep up the air pressure it will respond very well and is quite stable. I suspect that the Susato would be a handful for a beginner and that may contribute to the reviews you have read. I do not suggest the Susato as a first low D. I'd be more inclined to suggest a Dixon or the Kerry Optima instead. Both of those will use less air and have more conservative holes sizing and spacing.

Caveat: I like free blowing whistles. I would rather play the whistle instead of having the whistle play me. YMMV.

Hope that helps

Feadoggie

[Geebawn]

Thank you for your answer!

I had both Kerry Optima and Dixon low D whistles. I hated both. Optima was very touchy and quiet in the first octave, took very much air in the second octave, had no backpressure and the higher B was very difficult to hit. When it comes to Dixons... Well, usually they are out of tune. I had low D, low F, mezzo A, high D and they were unstable, quiet and out of tune. High Dixons take so little air that my chest hurts during the play whereas low whistles have no backpressure and take too much air

[The Lurking Fear]

Mine is probably around 15 years or older,so may be different now,you could contact Kelischek and ask.

Anyway,and sorry you'll have to convert to metric as my tape measure doesn't-from center of hole to center of hole in both instances the distance is 3 inches.I'm likely off by a hairsbreadth or so but nothing significant.

No complaints myself about 2nd octave stability with any of my Susatos,but mine are all at least 10 up to 35 years old. Still,it's doubtful that that they've devolved.

Feadoggie-ever handle a Howard? I always wear a parachute in case I fall into that B2!

[pancelticpiper]

I am thinking of ordering a Susato low D whistle. I have heard that they have good volume, nice tuning and a clear tone.

...people were complaining on the hole spacings and the sound being unstable in the second octave... could you explain what is wrong with the second octave of Susato?

I don't think there's anything wrong with Susatos. I've played Susatos since c1980 when I bought ones in high D, A, G, and low D, the first type with the wood block. I own several low Susatos now. My opinion is that Susatos get better as they get lower, the best-playing ones being the low D and low C.

The Susato Low D is a nice whistle. It has many very good features: good tuning (both the scale and the octave relationship), good voicing (low notes are clear and strong, high notes aren't harsh, nimble action), good volume, durable, inexpensive. Maybe the best thing of all is the powerful bellnote (Bottom D). There are Low D whistles around that cost twice or thrice what the Susato costs, that aren't as good as the Susato.

Here I'm playing various low Ds including a Susato

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkL06uOtZQc

I think Susato's bad reputation often comes from people who have only/primarily played their high whistles.

It's interesting several years ago I went on a Low D buying spree and I recorded myself playing a reel on each of them so that I could hear what they sounded like to an outside listener. (This is because the impressions of the player are often very different from the impressions of a listener.)

One whistle only stood out from the crowd as sounding most like a wooden Irish flute, especially in the 2nd octave: the Susato. (It's probably because of the thick walls and smaller holes, as opposed to thin-walled metal whistles.)

BUT! There's something about the way Susatos play (not how they sound) which puts me off from them a bit. It's very difficult to put into words, a certain brittleness that's subtle on the low Susatos but prominent on the high ones. With high Susatos the high notes take extra care; you really have to blow them strongly.

About finger spacing, with Low Ds there's really only one way to skin a cat. I laid out a pile of Low Ds from six or seven different makers and the fingerholes were all pretty much the same.

[whistle1000]

I agree with everything you say Richard! I too had one of the early low D's with the wooden block....loved it! I'd love to have it back....not sure if I sold it, loaned it out, or misplaced it...I've played most of the popular low D's and I'd have to say that the Susato was possibly my favorite....unfortunately, I jumped on the early Copeland low D hype and lost interest in the Susato....don't get me wrong, the Copeland is a fine whistle...you're right about the flutey sound with the Susato, thick walled, small holes, I've always attributed to the wooden block but that was just in my head....I picked it up in California when on the road, happened into a music shop and there it was, wooden block and all, my fiddle playing friend was with me and was thoroughly impressed with the "bark" you could get out of it...I used it for years, recorded lots with it....jeez, I miss that whistle I've alway been meaning to post some sound samples from one of the albums I've used it on....not too techy for that but my woman can do it...p'raps I will....

[Feadoggie]

Feadoggie-ever handle a Howard? I always wear a parachute in case I fall into that B2!

Yes, I guess I keep discounting the Howard. I didn't always play the original tube. I made my own bodies to solve that issue. But you are right, that is a big hole. The Howard uses larger holes than average overall. I think the difference is that the Howard hole is still round not elongated like the hole was on my Susato. But I still found both to be playable designs.


Feadoggie

[Angel Shadowsong]

Hi and Welcome.

For measurements Center B2 to Center B3 is 1.75 inches.
That's about 4.5 cm. My variance error is probably 1-1.5 mm. Note I'm using a tape measure which bends and not a power tool that's why I put a variance.


I believe I am the one who has an Issue with their second octave on low whistles. I got no problem with their high.

I have 3 Low D of Susato. One Kildare with 2 keys, one Kildare unkeyed and 1 Dublin.

I also own an E-F-F# Whistle of theirs.

What's consistent is all of them are sharp in second octave.

Is it me or is it the whistle?

First testing: Breath manipulation

I lowered the pressure of blowing little by little. Because as one lowers the tone gets flatter little by little.

My result was the tone flip to first octave from its 15 cents sharp second octave, it was its limit.
It is consistent with the other keys as well.

I have discovered also that they modify their products often.

The Low whistle I have has 1 o-ring and has serrated joints.

Then I recently purchased older models.

It still look like the current Kildare but it has 2 O-rings and joints are not serrated.

It is Key of E and Eb.

Second Testing: Comparing the E's of both model of both.

I can say that the Newer model is tapered tighter than the a little older one which has 2 O-rings.

How did I found out?

Simply by inserting the same finger on the end.
The newer one is tighter that only 2/3 of my pinky got through.
The older one has all my finger in it.

Intonation wise the older one is much reliable in tuning.
Though the C# and D# of 2nd 8ve is flat by 10-15 cents it can be corected by breath or cross fingering of XOO-OOX for C# and OOO-XXO for D#.

Same is true for Eb model with 2 O-rings.

Third Testing: Dublin Comparison

The Dublin is in tune and can be corrected easily. The problem is it has a bigger B2 hole.

Fourth Testing: Jamming

Playing with other instruments using the E.
Result: newer model raised other instrumentalists' eyebrow,

Older model got through.

Again it is possible that I got a stinky one, but I had 2 kildare low D and ordered at different time. Both are sharp on second octave.

Pulling the joint did not do the trick as it made the lower octave flatter but the second octave is still sharp. I can not pull iut any farther enough as it loosens.

Doing the Rush tweak is not that consistent.

I agree with the flutey sound.
I agree also with the non-begginer choice.

Choosing this as a beginner will make you develop a cough reflex. Mine lasted for 2 weeks. Breath exercises for vocal training and gym sped up my recovery.

Note of disclaimer: I do not intend to defame the maker of the whistles I mentioned. What's mentioned above is my opinion, and I am expressing it with freedom.

Note of paranoia: I am ear sensitive and intonation freak. 15 cents sharp or flat makes my ear feel the sound of the scratching of a styrofoam and I ear a lot bees freaking out.

It is so sensitive that I am a light sleeper in which sudden motion wakes me up and I can tell the coackroach direction with lights turned off. I also got the ability to tell a person if he is lying just by listening to his voice patterns.

I got this because of the perfect pitch training CD. It has lots of disadvantages. Seriously. To the point of I can not tolerate chit chats and a baby's cry.


Regards,

Angel

[Geebawn]

Thank you for your answers!

Angel, I have the same syndrome - I am a freak when it comes to intonation. This is why I am interested in Susato - they are said to play well in tune (but after reading your post I don't know anymore) and they sound so clean... I like to play some minor tunes from French, Swedish or Jewish music so I need to use half-holing quite often - on many aluminum whistles that I played it just didn't sound good, the tone was muffy and dirty, even if you perfectly hit a half note. When I was playing some plastic whistles (e.g. Goldfinch Whistles - the only Polish whistle makers, they make quite good whistles) the intonation and the clarity of tone were always good when using half-holes.

[pancelticpiper]

The only wood-block early Susatos I still have are an A and a G, very nice players, especially the A.

A friend still has that Low D.

The high D was THE loudest D whistle ever! It was all white. (The old Susatos were made from white, brown, or mixed white and brown ABS stock, all machined.)

That high D came and boy it was flat (didn't have a tuning slide, none of my early Susatos did) and I discovered it was made in Baroque pitch! (I didn't order such.) So I chopped the bottom and carved out the holes and that thing was incredibly loud. I gave it to a very good player for street use.

Anyhow I have a couple more recent Susato Low Ds, and a Susato Low C, all keyless, the C and one of the Ds with the angled neck. They're great for the honking flute style.

[Angel Shadowsong]

Hi,

You could take the Risk if you want,I probably had a bad luck on my purchases. I had no intentions to sway your choice.

Note that mine is a matter of opinion.

If you said you wanted the sound of a plastic whistle, you are most likely a player who wants a purer sound like I am. Plastic whistles tend to have a sound soooo close to wood. Many people mistaken it for a recorder sound. Susato sound is often compared to a Recorder sound.
As a player of both (but not on an expert level :p), I can say its not. Susato's bell note is strong, while a Recorder's bell note is "nasal" / "cloudy"/ somehow weak.

Susato's high note is LOUD (somehow shrill without the proper breath), and recorder's high note is pure and sweet.

Both sounds pure in tone, but Susato can be Honked on the Bell and Chiff burst can be induced with breath control.

So far though I hate my Lower Susato, I kept it. Hoping somehow in the future that I obtain a device to drill it. If I had a device to drill the Bore I could have done it and drill it little by little to tune it as per my preference.

I had an experiment with CPVC pipes and flutomat.

I used Susato Dublin head and made a low whistle that has a smaller B2 hole.

Note that it is flatter on the 2nd octave but it can be corrected by cross fingerings depending on your hole placements or breath compensation.


Regards,
Angel

[ickabod]

I have a Low G Susato and I really struggled with the large holes. Enough so that I found it to be frustrating. It was very easy for me to break the seal and I did not find the whistle to be very forgiving at all. Too much air… SQWACK.. Loose Grip… Squeek.. Playing fast or Allegro tempo was tricky. Using the tonging technique or the “tah” sound and was not possible on the low end (for me) because it would very easily break into the upper octave.

I have a soprano high C Susato whistle which I wouldn’t sell for anything. Surprisingly, I find that whistle to have a very stable low end. But, I did not care for Low G Susato.. Low D, yeesh, I cringe to think about it. However, some people play these very well, but I wouldn’t attempt it. I don’t match up well with the Susato low whistles. However, the intonation on my Susatos I found to be very accurate. That is of course if you’re after ET tuning. Which I prefer. So my experience was very different from Angels..

The tone of the Susato low whistles are (to me) very pleasant.

I just recently purchased a Burke Low G whistle as a replacement for my Susato Low G. I must say, I’m very happy with the Burke. As far as intonation goes, I have no complaints. The Burke handles well. All the problems that I hoped would be solved with the Burke were. I found my Low G whistle… The Susato will serve well as my backup or outdoor whistle.

[Angel Shadowsong]

I have an update for the OP.

Because this topic spawned, I took my. No longer played Susato Low D from my hidden treasure chest and started playing it.

The result... It is still sharp on 2nd octave. Particularly E to A.
Sharpness is at 20-25 cents variance.

Since I have 2 low D. I started to try taking risk in tweaking.

I remembered before that Hans told me the reason is because of excessive taper.

So intead of the Rush tweak, I used a Scrape the Bore Tweak.

I scraped the bore using Sand Paper and a Stick close to the bore diameter, creating a screwing method.

Scrapping the bore of the B1 to B3 area.... Continiously.... With lots of effort like 6 hours done 2 hours a day. I had resulted to a 90% improvement of intonation. The Variance now is 10-15 cents sharp. I ran outof sand papers so this Tweak is posponed.

I loved the flutey sound. I shall try it again on my E, F and F#.

[pancelticpiper]

I just recently purchased a Burke Low G whistle as a replacement for my Susato Low G. I must say, I’m very happy with the Burke. As far as intonation goes, I have no complaints. The Burke handles well. All the problems that I hoped would be solved with the Burke were. I found my Low G whistle… The Susato will serve well as my backup or outdoor whistle.

I completely agree. I had Susatos in every key because at gigs you never know what you'll need, and Susatos have some things going for them: they're inexpensive, reliable, have a decent sound, and are easy to carve. (That last one may sound strange, but I've sound that the scales, especially of the unusual key Susatos, can vary all over the map, and the whistles need to be carved.)

But as money has allowed I've replaced the Susatos with Burkes, which look better, sound better, and play better. (You get what you pay for.)

Until recently the only Susatos in my roll were low C, Gb, and Ab. But then I got a fantastic Reyburn low C and out goes the Susato. That angled-neck keyless Susato low C is very nice, the favourite of all the Susatos for me. But let's face it, the Reyburn blows it away.

I will say that both of my Susato low Gs are nice players. One is an early one, brown plastic with the wood block, which plays great, though the bore is a tad big, so the high notes are a bit wild. The other is a more recent one, with a slightly narrower bore, that plays nicely. In my opinion Susatos often have bores which are too big, and the narrower-bore ones tend to play better. I had a Susato A that had a very narrow bore (the same as the high D perhaps?) and it was a great player, playing more or less like good Generation whistles do, with a very sweet easy 2nd octave. I also have an early A with the wood block which plays very well. A more recent bigger-bore A not so much.