Pay up front or pay on receipt, is there the right way?

[narrowdog]

Over the last few months I've had contrasting experiences with whistle makers.
Some surprised me, one other has depressed me.
You can probably see where I'm going here.
There are makers like Mach Hoover who we all know here and I've had dealings with for a
number of years now who asks for the money when you place the order.
He tells you when it will be ready, in my case he said he'll start work that week
and let me know when it is posted.
I received the whistle in just over 2 weeks

I March I got in touch with Olivier Bouchard from Poitiers in France.
He replied that day and said if I wanted to reserve a whistle email him with my address
and he would let me know when it was ready.
No money up front I just had to pay when it arrived.
3 weeks later it arrived in the post. Lovely whistle, quite pure in tone

In contrast last November I ordered a high D from another maker who will remain nameless here
but is known to a few here.
He also wanted payment up front, so I thought fine it's not like he is unheard of.
Waiting time was 4 weeks.
So new year comes and goes and no whistle. I will add here I paid with Paypal but only have
a 45 day clause where if you don't receive the goods you can claim your money back.
By the end of February, 9 weeks in, I looked into getting my money back which is when I found
out about the 45 day bit.
Repeated emails and silence. 11th March I finally received a reply saying it was ready.
Another 7 weeks and I'm here posting this still with no whistle.
I also sent a fictitious email to see if he was still taking orders, and yes surprise surprise he is.
Money up front, same waiting list.

I'm not bothered about the whistle, I've since got the 'Bouchard' which is great and love it to bits and
I have plenty of others I play too and the kids didn't starve in the process.
I'm self employed and have to work hard to pay the bills and pay for my hobby which is going out and playing music,
it's the lack of trust that gets my goat.

[brewerpaul]

Unless the order is for for something that I might have trouble selling, such as a D+ with pinky hole for playing with right hand on top, I don't ask for money up front. When the whistle nears completion I notify the customer and ask for payment then. If any other customer backs out for any reason, I still have a good saleable whistle and those don't last long.

[Mr.Gumby]

Whether you buy from a maker or buy second hand, it's all a matter of trust. I think it's fair to pay in advance, or a deposit on order for special or particularly expensive items with the balance on delivery. But I equally appreciate the trust makers like John Sindt put in their customers and send out an ordered whistle when finished, accompanied by an invoice and the expectation money will be sent in return.

I say that in the knowledge I never had any problems with any maker or other seller of whistles (or flutes and pipes for that matter).

[narrowdog]

Whether you buy from a maker or buy second hand, it's all a matter of trust.

it is a matter of trust and we all live and learn, still gets my goat.

[Mr.Gumby]

Well, yes. I can imagine that. But there's really not a lot you can do except getting the feel of the other person beforehand and trusting it will go well. The problem with this sort of instrument sales is really that a lot of makers are not really a formal business and on one hand whistle buyers revel in that informality and feel special if they get a nice instrument. The other side of the coin is ofcourse that there's not a lot of recourse if things go awry and often the amount of money involved do not really warrant getting (small claims) courts, solicitors etc involved. So altogether, if things go wrong, it will leave the party that drew the short straw with a bad after-taste.

That all said and done, it is probably a good idea to buy from makers who accept paypal and lacking that at least take a credit card payment, that will leave you at least some (as far as I know) options getting your payment returned when the seller doesn't come up with the goods.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

Unfortunately i have exactly the same experience with this maker.. the 8 weeks delivery is closing on 52 by now, and response is non existent.
I might add that i am not the type to pester makers with endless "Are you done yet" mails or calls as soon as or even before the expected time is up.
Last response i got was that "he would try to have it ready for christmas. Maybe i should have asked what year..

[O'Briant]

I'm curious who it is -- I understand the desire to be understanding and patient and not to harm anyone professionally, but this conduct sounds fairly egregious. Better customer service through public shaming?

[ggunner]

I am not in favor of tarnishing a maker's reputation publicly, but if this maker is a repeat offender then perhaps other potential customers (victims?) should be warned before they send any money off.

Perhaps, someone in the market for a new whistle could post a message saying they are considering the purchase of a whistle made by "x". Those whistle players with direct experience with "x" could respond with private messages to the poster. Just a thought.

Personally, I have had wonderful experiences with the whistle makers from whom I've purchased a whistle. I would have no problem sharing these positive thoughts with another whistle player considering the purchase of one of their whistles.

I have found whistle makers, in general, to be honest about their wait time and fair in their pricing. Your experience seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

O'Briant: I don't expect an instrument maker becoming a better more responsive person after being outed and warned about, it's more about him suffering the well earned consequences of less/no more customers.
See the famous flute maker with the initials S.M. (whom i personally don't have any gripes with) he has certainly earned any ill reputation i.m.o.
Now if i were to get my whistle along with an apology i'd tend to forgive since it's not an instrument i am in dire *need* of, but nevertheless, this is so not the way to conduct a business, regardless if it's his daytime job or a hobby!

[O'Briant]

Agreed Lars.

[ytliek]

In contrast last November I ordered a high D from another maker who will remain nameless here
but is known to a few here.

So new year comes and goes and no whistle. I will add here I paid with Paypal but only have
a 45 day clause where if you don't receive the goods you can claim your money back.

I too would like to know who publically or privately as I take great pride with supporting the whistle making community. I'm not crafty nor handy with tools, but, I appreciate those individuals who are. And I too learned the hard way about the 45 day clause with Paypal, although it was my first ever purchase (not a whistle) from a highland gear business. Maybe during initial ordering for whistles both parties agreeing to the 45 day clause in Paypal would prevent issues, otherwise just stick with the most reputable whistle makers. I've a somewhat wide variety (its only been two years so far) and I haven't had a bad experience purchasing yet new or used.

I can understand delays, it happens, illness, family, life all get in the way, however, what would really get my goat is the non-response conctact in the event there is a delay.

[Steve Bliven]

Frankly, I'd like to see a list of makers/purveyors of instruments with member's comments/ratings on both the plus and minus side—with the understanding that negative comments be fairly explained and updated if/when the matter is resolved.

I wouldn't want this to be bashing of an individual as a human being but a clear and accurate recounting of times when a maker went above and beyond in service, quality and/or price or when a maker fell below expected standards. Obviously, this would mean more work for the Moderators to keep things "fair and balanced", but then they've had it easy lately...

As suggested above, there have several reported issues with the flutemaker, Sam Murray (I don't know him nor have i dealt with him) that have had the effect of cautioning prospective purchasers. The Moderators have let these messages stand as they were documenting issues that were unresolved—not bashing the maker as a person but highlighting less than satisfactory business practices.

I have no idea whether any offending makers read C&F or would modify their business practices even if they did, but the consumer side of the market would have more information in deciding about purchases.

Them's my thoughts.

Best wishes.

Steve

[narrowdog]

Over the last few months I've had contrasting experiences with whistle makers.
last November I ordered a high D from another maker who will remain nameless here
but is known to a few here.
He also wanted payment up front, so I thought fine it's not like he is unheard of.
Waiting time was 4 weeks.
So new year comes and goes and no whistle. I will add here I paid with Paypal but only have
a 45 day clause where if you don't receive the goods you can claim your money back.
By the end of February, 9 weeks in, I looked into getting my money back which is when I found
out about the 45 day bit.
Repeated emails and silence. 11th March I finally received a reply saying it was ready.
Another 7 weeks and I'm here posting this still with no whistle.
I also sent a fictitious email to see if he was still taking orders, and yes surprise surprise he is.
Money up front, same waiting list.

I am not in favor of tarnishing a maker's reputation publicly, but if this maker is a repeat offender then perhaps other potential customers (victims?) should be warned before they send any money off.

I have found whistle makers, in general, to be honest about their wait time and fair in their pricing. Your experience seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

ggunner I can't agree more with what you've said and what others have said here too.

I've thought long and hard this afternoon about what I've posted here and it gives me no pleasure at all to do so.
For me personally I'm self employed and do a good job, I pay for materials up front and when my customer is satisfied with
my work and is happy I ask for payment. Whether it's doing some varnishing or a full replacement kitchen.
If I acted like this just once I would soon be out of business.
I don't like being taken for a ride.

My version of events above are a basic outline and time frame of my experience, I have all the emails I
have sent and received to back this up including the fictitious ones.

The maker in question is Jean-Pierre Le Meur from Pleyber-Christ in Brittany, France.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

Steve: I wish there'd be a 'trusted sellers' list, pinned in the forums. Now i don't think many, if any member here would get any -
but for the benefit of new users, signing up for the first time. They have no clue as to how many instruments i have bought and sold via this forum.
As a new user i would appreciate to know the seller i am about to make a deal with is trustworthy.
Just a thought.
And, back on topic - if JP Lemeur would finally send me the whistle along with an apology, i would forgive him..

[Claus von Weiss]

This thread made me think of Glenn Schultz, one of the the most amazing and lovely makers, I ever bought whistles from. When first I contacted him asking for whistles in several keys, he sent me to Germany four lovely wooden whistles in the keys I had asked for with a note just saying: "Please send me the payment for the whistles you like and just send the others back to me!"

What an astonishing example of trust ... and what beautiful whistles as well by the way! Needless to say, I kept them all gladly sending him the money right away. That was the beginning of a great friendship across the pond, and I'm still very proud to play this lovely man's gorgeous whistles. And by the way, I'm happy to own a book of his poems as well.

That was Glenn for you, a very special person in oh so many ways!

Cheers
Claus