3-D printed reeds?

[tommykleen]

In these modern times you are able to "print" everything from handguns to your own face in ice cream. Do you believe there's any reason to assume that viable reed blades might be "printable"?

Discuss...

[an seanduine]

The problem as I see it is resolution. Making micro-structures with a printer are still a bit of a stretch.
A good few years ago Rico came out with their artificial single reeds. One of the avenues of their research was trying to embed fibres, and even meshes, in a plastic matrix.
NOTE FROM THE EXTREME FRINGE: I think our bio-genetic engineering industry may have a better shot at 'growing' a reed with the desired micro-structures.

Bob

[mke_mick]

That depends on how loosely you define the term "viable." To most people's taste, the sound of plastic uilleann chanter reeds is unacceptable. And for the foreseeable future, 3-D printers (consumer-grade anyhow) will continue to product things mainly in plastic.

Seems to me there might be more potential for printing staples.

--Mick

[PhilD]

I second what Mick says. You could print accurate tapered staples to tie the reed head too! Not sure how a plastic staple would effect the tone of the reed though.
The materials that are presently printable are just not up to the riggers of a vibrating reed head I feel.

[kathaleenypoopa]

My Rogge tenor drone reed is a composite reed, so I think maybe starting with 3D prints of drone reeds might be a good first shot. I'm actually working on one right now. I'm not too great at CAD, so it could take me a while. I'll let you know the results! I'm planning on using PLA for starters.

K

[an seanduine]

Single reeds have a very much simpler range of flex and bend than double reeds. Homogenous materials like polystyrene can successfully make single tongue reeds. Double reeds have a much more complex range of motion and flex.
Chanter reeds flex along two and three axes, and to make successful reeds the material has to do so in a predictable fashion. People have had some success making regulator reeds from homogenous materials, for example the skins of drink cans, or plastic from beer and soda bottles. But those reeds don't change octaves and operate over a a limited compass of frequencies. They never change their flexing from one pattern to another as has been observed with chanter reeds as they go through the two octave range they must perform.

Bob

[mke_mick]

My Rogge tenor drone reed is a composite reed, so I think maybe starting with 3D prints of drone reeds might be a good first shot. I'm actually working on one right now. I'm not too great at CAD, so it could take me a while. I'll let you know the results! I'm planning on using PLA for starters.

Excellent observation, Kathleen, for the reasons Bob put so well. I must say that, having just made a nice batch of maple-body/spruce-tongue composite reeds, I found the process of making those from scratch to be much less odious, and easier to "get right," than making chanter reeds. (All that sanding just never gets fun!) But it's by no means a quick process; it's nice to have options; and plastic (or even just plastic-bodied) composite reeds are a whole 'nother proposition than plastic chanter reeds, sound/performance-wise.

Please keep us posted (pun intended) on your progress!

Regards,
Mick

[m4malious]

Why not start by printing something more fundamental i.e. a tube of "cane".

My experience is that reed variation is largely the result of cane variation - solve that
by a repeatable, consistent, tube of correct material, density, diameter, flexibility, etc and you're half
way home, aren't you?

Thinking about such things - why not print "ivory"....Schreger lines and all....then make a million
dollars selling it to Asia.....then buy all the reeds you ever wanted with the money.

[PhilD]

Why not start by printing something more fundamental i.e. a tube of "cane".

My experience is that reed variation is largely the result of cane variation - solve that
by a repeatable, consistent, tube of correct material, density, diameter, flexibility, etc and you're half
way home, aren't you?

Thinking about such things - why not print "ivory"....Schreger lines and all....then make a million
dollars selling it to Asia.....then buy all the reeds you ever wanted with the money.

Can't help thinking you may have confused a 3D printers capabilitys with that of the ships "replicator" from Star Trek!!

[m4malious]

LOL. I'm not a trekkie, but I get the pun....

Sounds far fetched perhaps - but then you read someone printed recently a gun, guitar, living cells including
vascular systems onto a gel medium (that one sounds a bit like a cane tube, right?)....and you think, what's <not> possible?

As for the ivory, there's already 3d printed polymers / plastics that have the general colour.
One would think the replication of the Schreger lines would just be a case of altering the direction of laying down the material
when then printer is running.....

[Ted]

The largest hurtle to overcome will be the tone of the finished product. This mainly applies to double reeds. I am not a fan of composite single reeds either. The can produce the desired note, but they mostly lack the harmonics found in cane. I make cane drone reeds for pipers who got composites with their sets from the maker but want the tone only cane or other natural materials produce. Chanters are far more demanding than drones. Plastic staples are more of a possibility than plastic reed blades. Yoghurt pot plastic (polystyrene?) is rather soft and it changes over time, due to plasticizers which dry out of the material. Polyester (Mylar) film is a better choice here as it does not contain plasticizers and will not change over time. Cane or wood tongues sound far better than poly tongues on drone reeds.

It is far simpler to make cane drone reeds than any composite. There is a learning curve to using cane drone reeds and many have never developed the touch for working with them. The usual excuse for using composites is that they keep in tune better than cane reeds in changing environments. Most of the top pipers I know travel the world with all cane reeds and prefer them for the tone. They are able to keep them going wherever they play. If you are satisfied with the mediocre sound, composites may work for you. Most who use or switch to cane reeds do not go back to using composites. They use them because they sound better, even given the more sensitive nature of cane reeds.

[trophi11]

I have spent some time playing around with my 3D printer making Uilleann drones from ABS plastic. The issue with reeds is that the plastic has to vibrate correctly and the plastic in a 3d printer is shaped like a hot glue gun (long lines of plastic string draws your part). 3D printing is not there for reeds yet, but there are several 3d printers out there which may help print the pipes itself. The big issue currently is the types of 3d printing on the market which can print a working pipe can only do so in a fragile state (bores work, tone ok, chanter has the rigidity of sidewalk chalk).
Give printing a few years to come around and keep supporting your local pipe maker for now.
I will try to post pics of pipe parts I have printed when I played around with this

[kathaleenypoopa]

trophi11, I'd really like to see what you've printed if you're willing to post. I've tried printing a drone reed with PLA, but started having trouble with the bed of the printer, so have only had failures!

Good on you for giving it a go.

K

[trophi11]

kathaleenypoopa, Are you using a heated bed in your printer? That seems to be where a lot of people have issues. If you go on the website http://renaissance-engineer.net/ Its the page of one of my old professors who has an obsession with 3D printers. If you have a printer I'm sure he has used it before and can help you get yours working.

Reeds will have the issue of the printer not being able to reproduce the shape and vibration of cane (or similar). Besides, as for now its still way faster and cheaper to use synthetic plastic tongues on drone reeds than a printed tongue. As for my experience.....

What I have seen with the current industrial 3D printers, we are not ready for working printed pipes yet in the manufacturing world. 3D printers are good for prototypes and taking your idea from paper to printer. It is mostly how the printers work now (strings of plastic layer to form the object). This does not give the rigidity we need for working objects, and the tolerances are not held that are needed for tone as well. Most post manufacturing processes on 3d printed parts do not fair well (like running a reamer in the bore of a printed pipe). SLA printers may help the piping world in creating artistic wax to use in wax casting of silver , but for now I will attach pics of an Uilleann drone I printed for prototype to finish

[kathaleenypoopa]

Thanks, trophi11.

K