Whistle embouchure

[oldfiddler]

Hi,

Fairly new to whistling and new to the forum I have a question about embrasure. I've read somewhere that embrasure control can help getting high a and b on whistles which take a fair bit of pressure to get the notes to sound. I tried a chieftain mezzo D and found it really hard to get the notes to sound and even then it was too piercing to be comfortable to listen to.

If I had better control would that have helped and how does it work? I cant see how I can vary anything but the air pressure going into the mouthpiece, unlike a clarinet or sax for example where the tightening the grip on the reed makes a big difference.

Does that make sense or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

of

[Corrected topic title spelling. - Mod ]

[MTGuru]

Hi oldfiddler, welcome.

See my description here of the various parameters of whistle embouchure: viewtopic.php?p=788155#p788155

[ytliek]

Welcome to the forum.

The whistle is fun.

[whistlecollector]

Fairly new to whistling and new to the forum I have a question about embrasure. I've read somewhere that embrasure control can help getting high a and b on whistles which take a fair bit of pressure to get the notes to sound. I tried a chieftain mezzo D and found it really hard to get the notes to sound and even then it was too piercing to be comfortable to listen to.

Some whistles are just plain ornery up high. I have some whistles that will sound lovely up to about second octave G or A, but will go no higher or will screech horribly. No amount of labial calisthenics seem to help. Other whistles will sing right up into the third octave almost no matter how I blow into them.

If I had better control would that have helped and how does it work? I cant see how I can vary anything but the air pressure going into the mouthpiece, unlike a clarinet or sax for example where the tightening the grip on the reed makes a big difference.

No doubt that your embouchure and oral cavity will have sòme kind of effect on the tone produced -- your mouth will act as a resonating cavity to some extent, there may be some effects on the tone depending on which way you're holding the whistle with respect to your head & body -- what you might call "somato-tibial geometry". I personally think all of these effects are relatively minor for anyone listening to you play at some distance, though you may notice some effects since your ears and the whistle's window (where the sound is made by dividing the air stream) are in much closer proximity. And I don't think any of them will get you that coveted high b!

The idea of one's lips acting as a sound dam (mentioned by the Guru) makes sense. Over in the recorder world, "Carl Dolmetsch invented the so-called “tone-projector” (British Patent #666602), a wooden wheel-barrow shaped attachment which clipped on to the window of the recorder’s headpiece to focus the tone and project it forward in an attempt to give the recorder more volume. The tone projector, first used publicly by Carl Dolmetsch in 1949..." (recorderhomepage.net). Mr Copeland has exactly this kind of device on (some of) his whistles -- it would "focus the tone" and "project it forward". The lip being a very soft surface probably wouldn't reflect the sound so well and may well deaden it -- just the reverse of the whistle wheelbarrow attachment. I suppose one could wear a hockey mask while playing the whistle and see if the sound from the whistle is strengthened by the hard plastic vs. skin and hair.

Mostly, however, I agree with the following:

I agree that obsessing about whistle embouchure is silly. It's far less critical than other fundamentals of breath control and fingering technique. But not much different from fiddlers thinking about bow tilt, or guitar players thinking about pick angle. It's fun and easy to experiment with, and might lead to interesting discoveries about the latent possibities of a given whistle.

Embouchure is really something that happens to french horn players and, perhaps worst of all, bassoonists. This of course is because those other woodwinds and brass all rely on a very active and cooperative participation of one's jaws, mouth & lips in conjunction with the reed or mouthpiece in order to create sound. This is why Sir James sounds lovely while playing the flute, while I can make the flute sound like I'm blowing across the top of an old jug.

When we consider that the kwela embouchure requires the whistle player to basically stick the whole end of the whistle into his mouth and blow directly into the window, we can immediately conclude that "embouchure", in the traditional clarinet or bassoon sense, is less of a thing on the whistle.

I may be entirely wet here, but I find that getting those high notes -- or, really, getting any notes at all on a whistle -- is much more about breath control and support (assuming the whistle is in proper order(*)) than it is about embouchure per se. It's my opinion, and others may agree or not, that one's embouchure for playing the whistle is more about comfort while holding the instrument, placing the instrument where your fingers can get at all the holes easily and facilitating lengthy playing sessions than it is about tone generation or control. Me I play "right handed" (i.e., right hand lower) and so hold the whistle a little off-center between the lips. I don't bite on the mouthpiece the way many people do (i.e., the way sax and clarinet players chomp and chaw all over their mouthpieces). I find it very comfortable to aim the whistle along a line running through my canine teeth -- that angle places the instrument comfortably in reach of all fingers. Now, I do have a left-handed flageolet, and when I play that "left handed" (i.e., left hand lower), or when I play the whistle "left handed", I reverse the angle of the whistle, but keep the same general embouchure. I haven't noticed where my embouchure either helps or hinders the production of high notes.

NOTE: I don't know what kind of whistle you're playing, but some instruments are very adjustable in the fippular department -- Cooperman, Clarke, Shaw, Calura, any no-name wood block pressed steel or brass whistle and of course, the older lead block brass whistles. If the lower edge of the window isn't set right -- if the whistle isn't well voiced -- you'll have difficulties in playing but hardly any notes at all. I have one old pressed steel whistle that makes no musical noise whatsoever, just the slightest whisper of quasitonality. Manking around with the window will eventually sort it. Other whistles -- wooden ones and plastic ones and heavy brass or aluminium ones are much less adjustable, and I wouldn't recommend messing with them.

If you're playing one of the former kinds of whistles, then you might try raising or lowering the lower edge of the window a little -- this kind of tweaking, when done right, can make a formerly unplayable whistle sing reasonably well or even very well indeed. If your whistle has a plastic head, it will be harder to adjust, but some folks do such tweaking (Mr Freeman being one).

Does that make sense or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

You do indeed make sense, though as I said, at least in my experience I think your problem is more likely one of breathing and not so much one of embouchure. The Guru also mentions fingering technique. You might try the alternate fingerings for high a and b: a = xxx xxx and b = xxx xxo. You will need to slightly vent the no. 1 finger hole (the "first octave key", as you would for any high note) and blow a little harder, with a little more pressure, to pop up into the third harmonic series. Naturally, this series cán be carried some way higher as well, and it is this fingering trick that allows the tabor-pipe (a tin whistle with only three holes) to play a whole scale without ever using the other hand.

Cheers and good luck with it!

[oldfiddler]

Very interesting, thank you all. Memo - must learn to spell...

I've got a Dixon trad and a Susato plus an Impempe which I've borrowed. High notes are easy on the Dixon but with the other two I have to use a bit more pressure, that's what prompted the enquiry in the first place. I'll try the suggested method of changing the tone of the Susato, see if I can get it to work for me and not stress too much about embouchure.

OF

[Oisincooke]

You really can't be scared to blow into a sussato. They're a fantastic whistle, but do take a while to get used to them. They take a lot of puff to get the upper notes in the second octave consistently, and there can be some ear piercing sounds that come out of it while you're trying. I think they're a brilliant whistle once you get the hang of them tho, nice and loud and responsive. Have fun with it!

[oldfiddler]

I've been trying the alternative techniques described by MTGuru in the link above. I found the sound dam idea the simplest but at the expense of almost eating the whistle (Susato). The other techniques were more hit and miss so I guess need a lot more practise, as it was I was as likely to make the sound worse rather than better.

OF