Bansuri and Irish Flute

[bansuri Matt]

I play bansuri, the bamboo flute used in classical Hindustani and folk musics.The other day I had the thought to try some Irish songs on it, I had this book laying about 'Essential Irish Session Tunes' and so picked up my bansuri and started on a few. To my surprise, I could play these songs fairly well, just a matter of building up speed, but I found also the range of my flute was limited for some of the upper and lower registers for these Irish melodies. I have a G tonic/D bass bansuri, 25 inches long, the basic notes from bass all 6 holes covered: D,E,F#G,A,B,(then C with half top hole closed) then C# (no holes covered), then on an octave up. The Irish songs in the key of D in this book sometimes have notes lower than the D which leaves me out.

SO- I was wondering what the differences between a basic D Irish flute and the D bass bansuri are, they both seem to have 6 holes but it seems the Irish flute is geared for playing these songs at faster speed and perhaps easier? Please enlighten me!

It seems the bansuri can play a good bit of these Irish songs, but has it's limitations. If I wanted to have a go at playing the Irish songs, would a Dixon polymer D flute be a good way to start, I don't want to spend too much on one for starters, other suggestions on beginner Irish flutes welcome. THANKS.

[Mr.Gumby]

Ronan Browne uses bansuris often, though maybe not for dance music.

See here for example

[bansuri Matt]

Hi Mr Gumby- it looks like a bansuri, but without close-ups I find it hard to tell if it's a bamboo Irish flute/whistle or if Ronan took a traditional Indian bansuri and then adapted an Irish flute/whistle style type mouthpiece? anyone know?

[Mr.Gumby]

He brought a bunch of them back from India as I recall.

[MTGuru]

A friend of mine did the same. An entire set of 12 transverse bansuris for something like $60.

[jim stone]

I lived in India for several years and played bansuri, though not well. But I can testify that your D bansuri has the range and tuning of a standard keyless Irish flute. What one does, when the tune descends below the low D is to play the note higher up on the flute. Similarly if the note is higher than the flute will play, one plays it down the flute. This is sometimes called 'folding' the tune. It happens a lot, at least when I play. The old orchestral flutes had keys below low D that enabled one to play lower notes. These are rarely used in Irish trad music, in fact, and they are expensive, so many of us just 'fold' the tunes. There are some good cane/bamboo flutes for ITM, some of them prized, so your flute should fit right in.

I've owned the dixon three piece polymer flute, several of them over the years, and can't say I would recommend it.
You might stick with what you have for now. The good news about the better Irish flutes is that you can usually get your money out of them, if ever you wish, since they are sellable.

[hans]

I have a G tonic/D bass bansuri, 25 inches long, the basic notes from bass all 6 holes covered: D,E,F#G,A,B,(then C with half top hole closed) then C# (no holes covered), then on an octave up. The Irish songs in the key of D in this book sometimes have notes lower than the D which leaves me out.

SO- I was wondering what the differences between a basic D Irish flute and the D bass bansuri are, they both seem to have 6 holes but it seems the Irish flute is geared for playing these songs at faster speed and perhaps easier? Please enlighten me!

People usually call the "songs" "tunes", as they are usually not for singing, but playing (no words associated with the melodies). Yes, sometimes a tune may dip below D, which is fine if you play a fiddle, but a whistle or flute player may need to change these notes to something playable, raise them up a bit, perhaps a third, sometimes a whole octave. Experiment with these!

One main difference between an "Irish" wooden flute and a bansuri is the bore: Irish flutes usually have a tapered bore, the bore getting narrower towards the foot. This helps with the octave tuning, and also with the finger stretch. The stretch between bottom 2nd and 3rd finger is a lot wider on a bansuri. You can half-hole the sixth hole quite well on a bansuri, but not really well on an Irish flute (unless it has keys for the semi tones not in the D major scale). The tone of a bansuri is of course different. Irish flutes tend to have a darker tone, due to the thickness of the wood at the embouchure hole (bansuris are thinner).

[cross-posted with Jim]

[bansuri Matt]

It seems the basic D bansuri and a standard keyless Irish flute have a lot in common.
If I wanted to play a standard keyless Irish flute with the narrower bore would you suggest I have a look through this posting for sources of decent beginners Irish flutes:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=99911

thanks, your advice very helpful.

[Jayhawk]

I am not affiliated with the seller at all, but someone just posted a Shannon flute for sale at $240 USD...that's a great deal on a great flute.

Eric

[O_Gaiteiro_do_Chicago]

I think you may be referring to a G bass bansuri, not a D bass. G bass would be three holes closed G, or all holes closed D. That is the same as an Irish flute as far as fingering however you will find that the bansuri is not optimized to cross finger for the C natural and as a result you may have to adjust your breath or lip up or down to compensate. The range will be the same but your tuning beyond the 3rd octave D may start to go flat. With that said I own and play bansuri because I study Indian classical and folk music. For Irish music I stick with simple system flutes(like the Dixon you mention) as they are a better fit for the music and the ornaments come out much nicer. I own a 3 octave set of bansuri from my favorite maker in India and admittedly do pull some out of that pile when I need an odd key flute for Irish music. Until on got my 6 key F flute I simply was using a Bb bass bansuri, and I still use a Ab bansuri since I don't have an Eb Irish flute just yet.

[bsfloyd]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong - but I thought the bansuri, though still tuned to the major diatonic scale, differed from say the irish flute in that the finger holes were larger in diameter to aid in the half holeing that is used quite often in classic India music. I emailed flute maker Geoffrey Ellis a while back asking him the difference between his standard transverse flutes and his bansuri flutes and I believe he confirmed this as well as other differences like bore diameters and wall thicknesses. I remember him stating two complete different animals. True?

[Feadoggie]

If I wanted to have a go at playing the Irish songs, would a Dixon polymer D flute be a good way to start, I don't want to spend too much on one for starters, other suggestions on beginner Irish flutes

Dixon has very recently introduced a new model polymer D flute with a tapered bore called the TB012D I think. It is tunable, has a tapered bore, reasonable holes sizes and a lip plate for a deeper chimney. It should be a decent starter flute. It addresses several of the issues in the earlier Dixon polymer flutes.

Also Doug Tipple makes a good beginner flute but the finger stretch between holes will be a bit more than the Dixon layout. Pretty good flute.

Feadoggie

[jim stone]

These might interest you, too--bamboo flutes set up for Celtic music. Low price, well thought of, good quality. I've played them in some keys and liked them very well. http://windwoodflutes.com/

[paddler]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong - but I thought the bansuri, though still tuned to the major diatonic scale, differed from say the irish flute in that the finger holes were larger in diameter to aid in the half holeing that is used quite often in classic India music. I emailed flute maker Geoffrey Ellis a while back asking him the difference between his standard transverse flutes and his bansuri flutes and I believe he confirmed this as well as other differences like bore diameters and wall thicknesses. I remember him stating two complete different animals. True?

Yes, this is true, at least in my experience. Bansuri has a cylindrical bore, thinner walls/chimney depth at embouchure and tone holes, and much larger tone holes than Irish flutes. Bamboo flutes made for ITM, such as those by Patrick Olwell and Billy Miller, are very different to play than Bansuri. I find Bansuri a lot harder to play, at least for dance tunes, because of the large tone hole size.