Showdown - conical / cylindrical

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jemtheflute
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by jemtheflute »

Aha. Now, this is heading in a direction I was thinking of posting something about - I don't think it directly affects poll voting. I have mentioned it to Calum already privately (not in my poll message).

The thing is (and this is no criticism or complaint or de-validation - on the contrary), in Calum's test we are really only comparing the different bores of the flutes. Calum's cylindrical RC&Co is otherwise pretty much a normal 8-key simple system flute, save for the foot joint which is Bohm style and has Bohm-type tone-holes. The rest of the holes are rather Pratten-ish in their proportions. Thus Calum's flute will not sound like a full Bohm flute. Leaving aside extraneous noises such as key-slap and the whole vexed materials debate, likewise questions of embouchure cut and its influence, any full Bohm flute or similar, such as Radcliff, Carte 1851/67, etc. using Bohm's tone-hole ideas (large, fairly equal in size, placed in correct theoretical acoustic locations, as nearly as possible fully vented below any given 1st or 2nd 8ve fingering, with equal key-rise) will have a different tone-colour from a simple system due to those things. Paddy Carty's Radcliff doesn't sound different just because of bore, key-slap or the influence of platter keys on trad ornamentation/finger articulation!

The task Calum has set is first to distinguish between the two flutes he presents, (and as Nano commented, it should be obvious that there is a difference to all but the cloth-eared...) and then to state which we think is which. Answering Q1 and stating any preference we may have and care to give reasons for is easy enough and stands alone. But Q2 trades on our perception of the received or experienced stereotypes of the sound-character of each kind of bore. However, how many of us have ever (knowingly) previously heard a simple system on a Bohm tube?

A significant part of our stereotyped idea of the characteristic tone qualities of Bohm flutes derives from the full Bohm system with its very even intonation and equal character of all notes, which features are due primarily to the tone-holes and mechanism, not the bore. Take those factors away and how helpful is the stereotype in making a decision on Calum's Q2? It didn't help me much, and I know Calum's playing and I know his RC flute!

How, for the sake of argument, does a conoid body/cylinder head flute with tone-holes according to Bohm's principles (as far as possible) sound in comparison to either "normal" simple system or to full modern Bohm? Clearly it isn't part of this experiment, but it would be interesting to do a similar comparison of 4 wooden flutes, the two present ones plus one full Bohm and one Bohm on conoid body. It would be necessary either to record them in such a way as to exclude key-slap from the recording (from a distance in a good acoustic?) or to resort to electrickery to remove any key sound.

Of course, some of the above is well and long discussed and opined on by flute historians from Rockstro on through Bate down to Rick Wilson (see his website). Rockstro and most other writers came at it with a progressivist attitude, deriding those who clung to older forms with demonstrable (by their actually quite understandable ideals) deficiencies. They saw no point in a flute like Calum's, nor, despite their interest in flute development and history, would many of them have "related to" the Period Instrument revival nor developments such as the modern "Irish" keyless flute or the Beaudin Modern Traverso discussed elsewhere on C&F recently. We in the trad world and those in HIP have a different, post-modernist approach which sees value in utilising the older forms for what they are good at, using both their strengths and weaknesses for what they offer us interpretatively. Yet of course there is still, in parts of the mainstream classical world, an ongoing derision for such views and a continuing search for "improvement" and the "perfect" flute, whatever that may be!

Of course, we all seek the perfect flute for us, at least to some extent, and Calum's exercise here is in part related to his personal quest, I ween. :) :twisted:

Anyway, the above is a caveat, a warning to folk not to rely on the stereotypes too much - though who knows (yet), maybe they'll be borne out in the upshot! (And no, I'm at no advantage here - Calum has told me nothing privately.)

The results and revelation are going to be interesting!
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Calum Stewart »

Hi folks, just bringing this all together now.

So I guess "test over"! I've had in the region of 30-40 replies on the test, not sure of actual figures yet as havn't been keeping a running tab. So, I'll get the information together ASAP.



I do just want to say one thing - and in some way proves my point without going any further : almost every single reply has said that it was very difficult / impossible, to tell which was which. Most replies used the term 'guess' or 'feeling' when relating to their reply about which was conical and which was cylindrical... which, to me at least, proves that even with a massive difference in bore, it's extremely hard to tell which is which.
I suppose, for me too, this covers any possible argument between Pratten and Rudall and Rose designs - If it's so difficult for people to tell between conical / cylindrical, how can we take any argument at all between Pratten vs Rudall Rose seriously, from anything other than the players views? People will disagree with me on this, I'm sure. But all I can say is... do a test... prove it ;)

But of course I know there are differences... but I think the point is, there are far more differences the player notices, than ever for anyone else.

Motto: Just do it. Just play and "save your hot air for playing your flute" as one board member quite rightly says :)

A note on the test: The thought occurred to me to make the volumes of both flutes the same (by changing the sound waves on recording software). Of course I didn't in any way edit the sound, they are as was played exactly. However I must say that some replies were relating to volume as much as tone, and some (because they already knew the volume differences between my flute and a pratten model) used this to aid there decision.

Anyway... I'll let the results speak for themselves, and people can draw their own conclusions. I'll simply put the numbers, then I'll put some random phrases associated with each flute. As you will see, most terms - both positive and negative, appear under each flute type.
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by LorenzoFlute »

almost every single reply has said that it was very difficult / impossible, to tell which was which
Strange, I think the differences were quite huge. I didn't read your post carefully before listening to the clips, and was actually picking which was flute A and B, and only after I read that you didn't mix them up and it was a straight AB AB AB. I got it right quite easily anyway, and also with a friend that was listening (he plays both Irish and Bohem flutes).
Now we'll see if, apart from being able to tell them apart correctly, I also got the conical/cylindrical right... (I must say, I would be really suprised if not)
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by paddler »

I suspect the reason most people found it hard to tell which was which is because most of us have little or no experience playing or even hearing a cylindrical bore simple system flute with a parabolic head, so we couldn't say what it sounds like in comparison to conical bore flutes. I also suspect that most people thought there was a big difference between the two sounds posted -- I certainly did. So, I think the conclusion that bore makes no difference is incorrect. From my perspective, it seemed to make a big difference, but with no experience of one of the designs I found it difficult to attribute that difference one way or the other. Thats why I'm eagerly awaiting the result!
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by jemtheflute »

paddler wrote:I suspect the reason most people found it hard to tell which was which is because most of us have little or no experience playing or even hearing a cylindrical bore simple system flute with a parabolic head, so we couldn't say what it sounds like in comparison to conical bore flutes. I also suspect that most people thought there was a big difference between the two sounds posted -- I certainly did. So, I think the conclusion that bore makes no difference is incorrect. From my perspective, it seemed to make a big difference, but with no experience of one of the designs I found it difficult to attribute that difference one way or the other. Thats why I'm eagerly awaiting the result!
What I said, nicely condensed! :thumbsup:
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Calum Stewart »

Hi Paddler,
Perhaps saying bore difference makes no difference isn't accurate, you are right. But I don't think it makes as much difference as we have all made out it does ;)

Othannen; I wasn't setting out to make / prove both flutes sound exactly the same - I think you might have misunderstood the goal, unless I have misunderstood your reply. Most people said it was very hard to tell which was which: in relation to which was conical and which was cylinderical. Not that flute A sounded exactly the same as flute B.

:)
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Calum Stewart »

Some phrases people used to describe flute A


More Balls. More Dirt. Better balance between octaves. More presence. More solid. More open sounding. Brighter, a lot more punch. Smoother. More reedy, resonant, open and strong. Sounds like it needs to be pushed. Barking D. More dynamic range. Sweet high notes. Sounds like it doesn't need to be forced. More to be found in this flute than other (than flute B). Most notes sound the same, have the same character. Far more reedy, punchier than B. No distinct 'bark'. Brighter. Cleaner but not necessarily more impact. Balanced timbre, well balanced between left and right hand. Larger sound palette than B. More alive. Crisper than B. More immediate sound (than B). Open, airy. More attack and more precision. Even sound. Louder. Lacks colour. Perfectly in tune. Each note the same colour. Drier sound, more bite.
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Calum Stewart »

Some phrases people used to describe B

More growl in the bottom octave. Fuller 2nd octave. Nasal sounding. Richer. Constricted. Strangled. Thin. Not as powerful. Darker. Warm overtones. Edgier. Less open more bark and honk. Less penetrating. Articulation clearer. Tone pleasant. Shadowed. Less timbre in the left hand than flute A. Complex harmonic overtones. Fuller / rounder. Reedy, dark. Rolls along better (than A). One dimensional. Mellower. Shines in high register. More personality than A. Even sound. Less broad (than A). More in tune (than A). Balanced harmonics. Dark low D. Rhythm and flow better (than A). Suffocated. Seems to play with less effort. Balanced but flute A has more power. Refined but uninteresting. Sounds 'older'. Each note has it's own charater.
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Calum Stewart »

Other interesting things people said

Both flutes have the same 'pratten' sound, despite sounding different to each other.

and from our own Jem (he gave me permission to use this), a very concise analysis indeed:

"Both flutes are very fine-sounding and responsive. I can hear consistent and distinct differences between them, but if asked without being told they had different bores, I would absolutely not identify one as probably not being conoid. I'd just assume from the way they sound that both were normal (though high class) simple system flutes on conoid bodies, though clearly not identical twins. The stereotypes of the sound-character of each kind of bore do not, even when listened for systematically and knowing there is one of each kind, permit me to make a decision.

...The responses to both fingered and mouth articulations etc. are indistinguishable to this listener."
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Calum Stewart »

So the results!

Quick word - Everyone answered the question about which flute they prefer, but not everyone about which flute was which. So, we've had 60 responses to the test in total, with 52 replying to both questions. I didn't get responses from some people who I really expected I would get responses from (perhaps worried they might choose the 'wrong one!!) But.. I did get some responses from people who I wasn't expecting, both in and out of the forum - so that was nice.

.............
Those who think Flute A is cylindrical - 37
Those who think Flute B is cylindrical - 13
Those with no idea and unable to guess - 2

Those who preferred flute A - 33
Those who preferred flute B - 27
..............
Last edited by Calum Stewart on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Calum Stewart »

So, taking these results as they are (despite a lot of feedback saying it was very hard to tell which flute was conical and which was cylindrical I must add again!), I accept that we can tell the difference between a conical and cylindrical flute!
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Calum Stewart »

Which flute was which?

Flute A - Cylindrical bore
Flute B - Conical bore
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Lars Larry Mór Mott »

Calum Stewart wrote:Which flute was which?

Flute A - Cylindrical bore
Flute B - Conical bore
Like I guessed ..
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Re: Showdown - conical / cylindrical

Post by Peter Duggan »

Calum Stewart wrote:So, taking these results as they are (despite a lot of feedback saying it was very hard to tell which flute was conical and which was cylindrical I must add again!), I accept that we can tell the difference between a conical and cylindrical flute!
Though undoubtedly aided by the knowledge that we were listening to one of each?
Calum Stewart wrote:However I must say that some replies were relating to volume as much as tone, and some (because they already knew the volume differences between my flute and a pratten model) used this to aid there decision.
See (a wee confession here), I didn't go on volume but was influenced by which I thought sounded 'more like you'. And, having been very struck by the sounds of your Worrell flute video (yes, I know we were listening to the RC original here), my answer about which I preferred ('While I'd be very happy to sound like either, Flute A seems to be maintaining the reedy, harmonic-rich edge I like more of the time') was entirely genuine!

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