What is your session like?

[benhall.1]

Castlebar, Ireland Native, John Hoban - musician, singer, songwriter, author - has played and taught music all his life in the Troubadour Tradition.

What is the "Troubadour Tradition" as it applies to the 21c?

[pancelticpiper]

To my mind it's a lot more valuable to record and preserve solo, duet, trio playing of the great stylists. And there is a very large reservoir of that, circulating among musicians or held in archives and increasingly made available on the internet.

Interesting that you mention that, because I'd pretty much forgot that I have hours of tape that I'd recorded of Ray Tubridy, a Clare fluteplayer and cousin of Michael Tubridy, who settled here in SoCal and who passed away a number of years ago. His style is one I've not heard elsewhere.

It's great having easy access to a lot of stuff but an overload at certain stages of the learning process can easily muddle up things in your mind as well.

That's exactly what happens to somebody like me, somebody who grew up outside the tradition and who learned each tune from a different source. Ray Tubridy would marvel at it, when I would play one reel mimicking Paddy Carty, the next mimicking Matt Molloy, and so forth, marvel at it because he learned all his music from the same source (a local 80-year-old fluteplayer whose name I can't remember Ray ever mentioning) and played everything in the same style. But I played that way not because I was trying to mimic those guys but because I couldn't help but sort of be a human tape recorder, because I had no style of my own to stamp upon the music I was learning, and I would play each tune exactly as I heard it. It's the "muddling" you mention, as an outsider is exposed to so many different styles but hasn't yet evolved to a stage of musical maturity where all the various influences have blended with personal tastes to create a mature personal style. (I will probably never get to that point, though I've been playing this music for nearly 40 years now.)

[ytliek]

Castlebar, Ireland Native, John Hoban - musician, singer, songwriter, author - has played and taught music all his life in the Troubadour Tradition.

What is the "Troubadour Tradition" as it applies to the 21c?

One quality is you have to have been there when the exchange of the "gift" of music occurred. Its a moment.

Hoban also says, "sessions are finished in a certain sense..." concerning the preservation of the traditional music meaning the non-commercial music. Its about people, the "inner self" that gets passed along with the gift.

[ytliek]

To my mind it's a lot more valuable to record and preserve solo, duet, trio playing of the great stylists. And there is a very large reservoir of that, circulating among musicians or held in archives and increasingly made available on the internet.

Interesting that you mention that, because I'd pretty much forgot that I have hours of tape that I'd recorded of Ray Tubridy, a Clare fluteplayer and cousin of Michael Tubridy, who settled here in SoCal and who passed away a number of years ago. His style is one I've not heard elsewhere.

It's great having easy access to a lot of stuff but an overload at certain stages of the learning process can easily muddle up things in your mind as well.

But I played that way not because I was trying to mimic those guys but because I couldn't help but sort of be a human tape recorder, because I had no style of my own to stamp upon the music I was learning

That's what is meant with the gift of music.

and I would play each tune exactly as I heard it. It's the "muddling" you mention, as an outsider is exposed to so many different styles but hasn't yet evolved to a stage of musical maturity where all the various influences have blended with personal tastes to create a mature personal style. (I will probably never get to that point, though I've been playing this music for nearly 40 years now.)

Hoban says none of that matters, details, "play what you know, at whatever level, and play as best you can" and that is all that matters.

[benhall.1]

Castlebar, Ireland Native, John Hoban - musician, singer, songwriter, author - has played and taught music all his life in the Troubadour Tradition.

What is the "Troubadour Tradition" as it applies to the 21c?

One quality is you have to have been there when the exchange of the "gift" of music occurred. Its a moment.

Hoban also says, "sessions are finished in a certain sense..." concerning the preservation of the traditional music meaning the non-commercial music. Its about people, the "inner self" that gets passed along with the gift.

I must admit - I have no clue what you're on about.

[ytliek]

I must admit - I have no clue what you're on about.

YMMV. Everyone's journey differs.

So what is your session like asked in OP? And the OP should've clearly stated Trad session to avoid those so other varied type of sessions.

[benhall.1]

I must admit - I have no clue what you're on about.

YMMV. Everyone's journey differs.

So what is your session like asked in OP? And the OP should've clearly stated Trad session to avoid those so other varied type of sessions.

I go to sessions all over the place. I don't really have a 'regular' session. And, I have to say, from what I've seen in the UK and quite a few sessions also in continental Europe (mainly Italy) there are no trad sessions outside of Ireland that really cut it. (Of course, I haven't been everywhere in the world, so I couldn't be sure.) Yet the most basic of players seem to get it as soon as you hit Ireland. There are really very few sessions there that don't at least have the feel for trad music.

So, I can't really directly answer the OP, since I don't have a session, as such. Maybe I can just answer for my ideal session - rural, isolated by preference, a mix of instruments and voices and nobody caring whether anybody else is any good - just caring about the moment and the music.

[ytliek]

Maybe I can just answer for my ideal session - rural, isolated by preference, a mix of instruments and voices and nobody caring whether anybody else is any good - just caring about the moment and the music.

Well there you go, that's just what John Hoban describes, not worrying about details and just going with what you got. That's the session. Geez, I didn't realize the Mods could listen in everywhere.

I agree with the travels experience, but according to comments here and elsewhere true trad sessions are becoming harder to find, maybe less so but even in Ireland. Maybe its the music changing, or the peoples' attitude towards the tradition. Or which musicians are valued as worth preserving. And who gets to decide that? Another mention by Hoban was that the most senior of traditional musicians are valued in Ireland by even fewer people. Not by everyone though. Mr. Gumby mentioned it this way:

I think at that point it's important to make the distinction between traditional musicians and people who play tunes in sessions.

And some cultures/societies don't value their elderly at all. Tossing the babies out with the bath water.

[Mr.Gumby]

nobody caring whether anybody else is any good - just caring about the moment and the music.

That's a sort of contradiction in terms isn't it? Most good players I know care a lot about music and don't particularly care for people who are ruining their night's playing. In fact I think traditional musicians in general are extremely harshly critical of other musicians. Maybe not in public, in private though no prisoners are ever taken. It's always the not so great and outsiders who are the egalitarians that proclaim everybody should be accepted, no questions asked.

I agree with the travels experience, but according to comments here and elsewhere true trad sessions are becoming harder to find, maybe less so but even in Ireland. Maybe its the music changing, or the peoples' attitude towards the tradition. Or which musicians are valued as worth preserving. And who gets to decide that? Another mention by Hoban was that the most senior of traditional musicians are valued in Ireland by even fewer people.

Not sure what to say about that. Pub sessions are a fashion that will disappear as soon as publicans no longer see a profit in them. As long as they attract punters or tourists, they'll continue.

'True trad', another thing I don't know what to make of. I think a session as it once existed would be a social event, among friends. Not something meant to be 'found' by the general public by definition, not an event open to all comers. And traditional music was never anything but a minority interest to begin with, in fact I'd go as far as to say it was never more popular or accepted in Ireland than it is today.

Music and attitudes change as society and general attitudes change. Not a bad thing by definition. Ireland is not the same place it was forty or even twenty years ago and that's, in many ways, not a bad thing either.

[benhall.1]

nobody caring whether anybody else is any good - just caring about the moment and the music.

That's a sort of contradiction in terms isn't it? Most good players I know care a lot about music and don't particularly care for people who are ruining their night's playing. In fact I think traditional musicians in general are extremely harshly critical of other musicians. Maybe not in public, in private though no prisoners are ever taken. It's always the not so great and outsiders who are the egalitarians that proclaim everybody should be accepted, no questions asked.

I think I may have expressed myself badly. At any rate, I didn't mean that "everybody should be accepted" in the sense of tolerating mediocrity, or worse. I was thinking about some of the great sessions I've had, where a lot of it's about the people. But then, they've tended also to be populated by very good musicians.

I disagree about the harshness of traditional musicians though. Or at least, the best of them. In my experience, the very top musicians are almost always generous, genuinely tolerant, and critical of people who don't find good in almost anybody's playing. Again, just from my experience, it's the also-rans, the 'second best' musicians, who tend to be aggressively critical, even downright bitchy at times. The best musicians simply don't need to be.

I totally agree with this sentiment though - "Most good players I know care a lot about music and don't particularly care for people who are ruining their night's playing." That's unarguably true - almost a truism in fact. When I posted my quote above, I wasn't thinking of that. I was thinking of the opposite, where at times sessions just get to be some sort of competitive bitchfest, with the supposed 'stars' just itching to pounce on some poor soul who dares to play a wrong note. It's a recent phenomenon as far as I can see.

[Mr.Gumby]

I disagree about the harshness of traditional musicians though. Or at least, the best of them. In my experience, the very top musicians are almost always generous, genuinely tolerant, and critical of people who don't find good in almost anybody's playing. Again, just from my experience, it's the also-rans, the 'second best' musicians, who tend to be aggressively critical, even downright bitchy at times. The best musicians simply don't need to be.

I did say 'in private'. In my experience, especially with the old guys, opinions are/were quite brutal and to the point. Which doesn't negate being civil and encouraging while the person/persons in question is/are present. There's no need to put someone on the spot although I have been in situations where I have seen some of the greatest players tell people that if they couldn't they shouldn't. One situation I described here maybe ten years ago, it involved playing in C. The database has messed up, replacing my old username for an unrelated one, so it's a bit hard to find.

I remember one night a woman was playing the fiddle for one of the old stalwarts of Clare fiddle playing. After she finished the man asked 'where did you get that?' (which was a statement in itself, if you know how to read the old people). She replied it was just one of the many tunes she had in her head. The old fiddler leaned over to me and said 'and wouldn't it be great if they all stayed there'.

[benhall.1]

I have been in situations where I have seen some of the greatest players tell people that if they couldn't they shouldn't.

Oh, I've seen that plenty of times. Necessary sometimes.

I remember one night a woman was playing the fiddle for one of the old stalwarts of Clare fiddle playing. After she finished the man asked 'where did you get that?' (which was a statement in itself, if you know how to read the old people). She replied it was just one of the many tunes she had in her head. The old fiddler leaned over to me and said 'and wouldn't it be great if they all stayed there'.

Sounds like someone I used to know (a bit), rest his soul.

[Mr.Gumby]

I was thinking of the opposite, where at times sessions just get to be some sort of competitive bitchfest, with the supposed 'stars' just itching to pounce on some poor soul who dares to play a wrong note. It's a recent phenomenon as far as I can see.

I don't see much of that, I lead a sheltered life. I was more referring to being critical in general, not being rude to people.

[Mr Ed]

nobody caring whether anybody else is any good - just caring about the moment and the music.

That's a sort of contradiction in terms isn't it? Most good players I know care a lot about music and don't particularly care for people who are ruining their night's playing. In fact I think traditional musicians in general are extremely harshly critical of other musicians. Maybe not in public, in private though no prisoners are ever taken. It's always the not so great and outsiders who are the egalitarians that proclaim everybody should be accepted, no questions asked.

From my experience in country music, I cut my teeth with some veterans who could easily be called good players. They weren't crazy about people getting up and dropping the level of quality to...well I'll just say, not what it should be to keep people there and making the bar owner happy. Thankfully though, they weren't extremely harshly critical of other musicians. Things would've turned out much differently for me if it wasn't for the encouragement, support, and mentoring that I received from them. I know you said maybe not in public, but unless they're really good actors, that has to show at least a little. As a matter of fact, I recall receiving some displeased looks and being corrected for even making the slightest critical remark about someone else's performance if it wasn't made in a constructive way. That's excluding the ones that got up drunk.... there was little tolerance for that, and rightly so.

I disagree about the harshness of traditional musicians though. Or at least, the best of them. In my experience, the very top musicians are almost always generous, genuinely tolerant, and critical of people who don't find good in almost anybody's playing. Again, just from my experience, it's the also-rans, the 'second best' musicians, who tend to be aggressively critical, even downright bitchy at times. The best musicians simply don't need to be.

That gives me some hope, if I ever find a session within reasonable driving distance.

I guess my whole point is that hopefully I'll have the same good fortune with ITM as with country.

[crookedtune]

These are all good thoughts. IMO, there's only so far you can go with dedicating yourself to playing the pure drop traditional music in any given genre.

Like it or not, you're not the product of an insulated regional environment, and have been exposed to a myriad of styles and players. These things WILL find their way into your music. And the fact is, the very players you emulate were very likely pioneers and innovators themselves. Life moves on.

I think the best things you can do are strive for good taste and radiate respect for the people whose music you value.