Good enough for folk music but...

[tommykleen]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the ET/JI thing.

I grew up playing an ET instrument in an ET world. Then I took up the uilleann pipes. Since this meant flying solo, I didn't care a wit about tuning to any ET instruments and ET circumstances. Then I got The Brendan Voyage. It was clear that there were two worlds on display here: Shaun Davey's world and Liam O'Flynn's world. It all worked though, and the chanter's JI set it apart from the rest of the ET orchestra nicely. At first I though LOF's chanter was, basically, out of tune. But it is really just a juxaposition of JI on ET.

...right?

/acronyms.

[TheSilverSpear]

I don't know, Ben. My knowledge of this is basically, "is the tuner showing me a red light or a green light?"

[benhall.1]

I don't know, Ben. My knowledge of this is basically, "is the tuner showing me a red light or a green light?"

OK. So was it green for both bottom D and E?

[Lorenzo]

I would suggest a choir of good singers under a capable choir master is not likely to sing in ET but will instinctively sweeten their harmonies. They wouldn't sound very nice if they didn't.

Agreed. Unaccompanied choirs, quartets, etc., are variable pitched...meaning they can adjust to JI as they go along. Stringed instruments (the violin being the exception), pianos and pump organs included, are usually fixed pitch instruments...they're stuck with nature's imperfect distance between semitones within the octave, so they're resigned to the compromise of ET. Some band instruments can also adjust as they go. Some can't. So, when choirs, keyboards, and band instruments all get together, they have a hard time keeping in tune (in tune being defined as JI, according to most human brains ). So, the group is usually stuck with ET...depending on the song of course.

This presents a problem for most UP chanters--which only have to answer to the drone (until certain reg notes are played). UP are a bit of a mystery though because they're not really fixed pitched instruments even though we hope they'd be. Notes can be bent, they're affected by changing climate, bag pressure, bore and reed design. Two notes (chanter note and drone note) can always be perfectly in tune. So can three notes (chanter, reg, and drone) if you only use the same triad throughout the tune (four notes too in some cases). Start changing things up though, like changing keys, or including more than that perfect triad, and something will have to give.

[skipjam]

You're right, Mr. Kleen. The uilleann pipe chanter is not designed to play a tempered scale. That said, what Ben is saying is absolutely bang on in my experience. ( I know Mr. Davey and have played enough for him that he would certainly feel comfortable with bopping me in the head if I did not lock with the symphony to the extent that it can be done.) The D's and E's can- and should- be in tune with the orchestras. F#s, too. B can be a bit of a "critter," as we say in Kentucky, but it can be brought in with good bag pressure adjustments. The problem I have run into is C#. It is isn't sharp enough for most tempered instruments, but there we have it… it is what it is, and it is very close.

[MTGuru]

I don't know, Ben. My knowledge of this is basically, "is the tuner showing me a red light or a green light?"

OK. So was it green for both bottom D and E?

With JI tuners you need to be careful about your reference pitch or scale. Some tuners (e.g. the early Petersons) are set only for JI based on C, which will give you the wrong intervals for D pipes. Does your tuner allow setting the correct JI reference pitch?

Assuming so, for orchestral tuning you'd probably want to set your reference D to 12TET D relative to A440 (or A-whatever-they're-using). Then assuming your pipes are intonated to 5-limit or 7-limit JI, your E (at 9/8) should be ~4 cents sharp of 12TET and your B (at 5/3) ~15 cents flat of 12TET. If that's not the case, then it's your pipes that are the problem, not the JI vs. 12TET issue.

And if you really need 12TET overall, I guess you'd tune your flattest note (probably your F# at -14 cents) to 12TET F# then start taping everything else down ...

[MTGuru]

Stringed instruments (the violin being the exception), pianos and pump organs included, are usually fixed pitch instruments

Er ... Orchestral strings are, of course, not fixed pitch instruments (except that the open strings are tuned to fixed pitches). And those pump string organs are pretty rare.

Sorry, couldn't resist. And that doesn't invalidate your points.

[Lorenzo]

Er ... Orchestral strings are, of course, not fixed pitch instruments (except that the open strings are tuned to fixed pitches). And those pump string organs are pretty rare.

Thanks for the clarification. I meant to say most stringed instruments (the violin family being the exception--they don't have frets) are fixed pitched. The piano, also a stringed instrument, is fixed as well, and the free-reeded pump organ likewise. Right, the violin family can adjust to JI as they play, for the most part, except the open strings, just like the human voice.

Wait..am I repeating myself?

[CHasR]

maybe tape is the answer.

Yes, tape ... a tape recording of someone playing the pipes in tune.

Oh wait ... There is no such thing.

hahaha yes,, it IS particularly difficult to autotune a bagpipe

some overthinking going on here, i think.
hmm ...here, this might help:


for a short lyrical passage, if the structural tones are on pitch with the orch, then attitude & vibrato will do the rest. sssshhh its a secret....

[MTGuru]

hmm ...here, this might help

That's right ... Take your tuning advice from a deaf guy.

[No offense to our hearing impaired members, of which I am nominally one.]

[CHasR]

hmm ...here, this might help

That's right ... Take your tuning advice from a deaf guy.

[No offense to our hearing impaired members, of which I am nominally one.]

he had the attitude bit down though



WHATS THE NAME OF THE PIECE????? its killin me! . its that Healing Light Celtic prayer thing, innit?

[Cathy Wilde]

How's your off-the-knee E? Can you shade it that way?

[john]

i've only seen the start of the thread but am interested to know where this event will take place (that's if i've not got the wrong end of the stick and have misidentified thesilverspear)

[Squeeky Elf]

Just give them the pure drop. Feck 'em if they can't take it.

[Pyroh]

Just give them the pure drop. Feck 'em if they can't take it.

Yes, that will make appreciation of uilleann pipes higher...