Flute Materials

[Gromit]

Not that it makes a lot of odds but in furniture/cabinet making the term "warp" is used for a piece/plank of wood that has a twist in it whereas "bow" is a for a piece of wood that resembles something Robin Hood would use. I guess if you were unlucky you could have a flute that was both warped and bowed.

[Peter Duggan]

Whatever the dictionary definition (which I've not actually looked up), the term has been widely used and understood for donkey's years to describe unintentionally banana/bow-shaped woodwinds and you'll find examples of such use from makers and players alike on these very forums...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=boxwood+warp

(And, no, Google, I did not mean boxwood dwarf!)

[TWO TOOTS]

" It's warping Spock, but not as we know it " Should that be Jim? Always managed to mix them up

Anyway, it gives me a completely new mental image when Jim demands Warp Factor Eight.

[Gromit]

Whatever the dictionary definition..

It's not so much a dictionary definition but a woodwork and timber trade term - in which there is a difference between warping and bowing.

If you had a one piece flute a warping effect would cause the fingerholes to twist around the flute (most likely causing it to split) and they wouldn't be in line - but a bow in the flute would make it resemble a banana.

[Steve Bliven]

.....If you had a one piece flute a warping effect would cause the fingerholes to twist around the flute ...

Is that what the flutemakers advertise as "ergonomic fingerholes"?

Best wishes.

Steve

[TWO TOOTS]

Getting back to hatao's enquiry regarding the tonal characteristics of various hardwood timbers, I can honestly say as someone alluded to earlier on this thread, the only one timber that I've noticed to have any real tonal difference is that on the worn and more absorbent bore of ancient boxwood flutes. They literally suck up so much moisture over a prolonged period of play that you can feel the weight of the instrument increase in your hand. This, to my mind, may be one reason for the softer more muted tones often ascribed to these particular flutes. That said, I'm sure the diminished embouchure and tone hole size, coupled with the wide bore are also factors to consider when hearing the overall sound.

[kmag]

I must be lucky.

I have a John Gallagher boxwood flute and have also had boxwood flutes from Casey Burns and Terry McGee. None of them ever warped at all. None of my Blackwood flutes have ever cracked either, nor my clarinets from the 1950's.

[psychodonald]

Have several boxwood flutes, (one is at least 20 years old) had the other two for a fair amount of time. One is made by Casey Burns and is my favorite. Never had any bow or warp, or whatever in any of them. I live in a cold climate with low humidity in the winter, and it's very hot and dry in the summer and I take precautions to keep them properly oiled and humidified, as much as is possible. I have an old blackwood flute that I keep in the same conditions and it has a slight bow--go figure (it wasn't bowed when I bought it). I keep the humidity at 40% for all of my flutes, except for the ebonite and delrin, of course.

With regard to the wood itself, I really doubt it makes much difference in tone. I do think that the way in which the flute is made does and also the individual playing the flute. In my own mind, when I'm playing, I do think the boxwood sounds more mellow, or if you will "honey like," but I'm pretty sure no one else can hear it. I've never experienced an increased weight after playing for a long time with my boxwood flutes and I can't detect any shifting of shape either. Now, Casey Burns does say in his instruction/care paper that came with my flute that it isn't uncommon for boxwood flutes to bow and is almost expected to some degree. I don't wish to disagree with a man I so highly respect; I just haven't experienced it to this point in time.

I have several sets of bagpipes, two made of blackwood--no warps, bows or cracks ever. I have one made of ebony and I personally would recommend not having pipes or flutes made of ebony. I've experience a bow in one of the drones and also some cracking. I might add that I take the same precautions with my pipes as I do with the flutes.

[hatao]

Thanks everyone for all of the comments. This is really interesting.

Sirchronique
> There was a study done once with Boehm flutes of different materials, and, if I recall correctly, none of the participants could tell the difference.

Yes, that’s what I read about. But I still want to stick on timber than synthetic materials.

paddler
>most people would agree that it is far from being the dominant factor

Yes, I also agree.

>I think wood type makes much more difference to the flute maker than to the player or the audience.

That’s interesting point of view. And I agree with the rest of your comments.

accordionstu
>Boxwood flutes produce a warmer, sweeter sound than the Blackwood flutes
> blackwood flutes and find that they do produce a more consistent tone, louder and better for noisy sessions.

Somehow I also feel so.

>This may be related to the lack of care that bandsmen take with their flutes
> and Boxwood being more expensive and more unstable than blackwood.

That’s the good point, yes.

TWO TOOTS
>Availability, Density, Durability, Stability, Cost and Appearance are large factors when choosing wood for flute construction.

Right, I’ve never thought like that but this is also a good point.
Maybe I will add this on my book.

bradhurley

Hello Brad!! That’s a compliment, thanks.
Congratulation for the new design of your web site!! That's so beautiful.
And thank you for telling me about the detailed information of the experiment.

> I'm skeptical.

Me too.
So why don't we do the same kind of experiment on the Irish flute by same maker? LOL.

>most of a flute's tone quality comes from the head joint and the cut of the embouchure.

Yes, I also have read this. And this makes sense to me.

I need go back to my tax work (I am overwhelmed by tons of papers!! ) and reply rest of comments later.
I just recorded some tunes on Hamilton piccolo as a test, by the way.

https://soundcloud.com/tomoaki-hatakeya ... ccolo-test

Talk to you later.

[TWO TOOTS]

psychodonald wrote; " Have several boxwood flutes, (one is at least 20 years old) had the other two for a fair amount of time."

" I've never experienced an increased weight after playing for a long time with my boxwood flutes......"

This all hinges on your definition of " ancient. " The boxwood flutes I am playing are in the order of 200 years old, and the bores of these instruments have been eroded and worn to the point that they become open pored and absorbent. Oddly enough, this is not apparent with flutes I have of a similar age made from ebony and cocus. Boxwood, being less dense than either of these, is less durable, and the outer surface of the internal bore at least, becomes susceptible to this phenomenon, and as a result increase in weight. Give it another 180 years

[bradhurley]

> I'm skeptical.

Me too.
So why don't we do the same kind of experiment on the Irish flute by same maker? LOL.

I've never seen two identical flutes from the same maker. They may look identical (same design, same wood, etc.), but there are always subtle differences in the sound. I remember we had this discussion on the forum some years back and Terry McGee figured it would be possible for a maker to make two perfectly identical flutes; I can't remember the details but maybe it could be done if they set up jigs to shape the embouchure hole and tonehole undercutting in exactly the same way. I think all makers normally do some hand work on their flutes which introduces variables.

I switched headjoints on my C flute yesterday, and everyone remarked on the difference in tone. It wasn't just evident to me: the flute had a much more penetrating, darker sound than it had with the other headjoint. And my past experiment of using the same headjoint on different bodies (which made them all sound very similar but with subtle differences) reinforces the notion that the headjoint is the biggest determining factor in the sound.

[Geoffrey Ellis]

I think paddler summed it up well in his first post.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've made a wide variety of flutes from a wide variety of woods--everything from soft cedar (depending upon the flute type) to dense oily woods like blackwood, cocobolo, vera wood, lignum vitae, bois de rose, etc.. (though I've never actually used boxwood, funnily enough). It's simple enough to remove the wood itself from the equation by simply finishing the bore with a hard, waterproof finish. Oil doesn't really seal the wood permanently or completely, and this is especially true of open grain woods or soft woods. I finish my bores with clear coat marine epoxy and it is the great equalizer.

If the bore is smooth and glassy and has no open pores as a result of the finish, you no longer hear the wood. You just hear the bore shape and other factors (embouchure cut, finger holes, etc.)

I was asked in an interview recently "what is your favorite wood for flute making?" and I said "Delrin!".

Wood is beautiful, organic and unique, and it does have "soul" for lack of a better term, and I think players connect with that. Even if it is just a feeling or an idea, that's valid. But as a maker, materials like Delrin are great because they have awesome properties for woodwinds: dense, glassy smooth, highly machinable and totally stable. I know that many players don't like plastic, and I get it. However, when you are trying to replicate a design there is nothing easier to work with than Delrin, IMO. In fact, if it is finished correctly it can look so much like blackwood that players can't tell it's plastic (this actually happened with one of my flutes recently).

There is an older thread on this subject that is fairly epic: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=95193&hilit=cocus&start=45

[hatao]

Here is an opinion from my friend Andy Xu, who started making flutes in Beijing.

"So back to the question of timber, as I was major in physics in the university, I have some knowledge about the acoustic.

In my opinion, the most important thing is about energy transfer, the embouchure is the source of the energy and it runs through the bore carried by air.if the energy loss, the sound will be not that rich.

If the flute body has high rigidity, the energy loss will be less. and normally hard wood has higher rigidity than soft wood.

Another thing which affects the rigidity is the micro structure of the timber, take bamboo as an extreme example. it's has a low density, but it has the longest fiber among the woods, which gives a very high rigidity and low energy loss.

Compared to soft plastic, like PVC, it has higher density than wood, but has no fiber at all, so the sound is not rich, Delrin has higher rigidity, so it works better than PVC."

It seems very convincing to me.

[kmag]

Here is an opinion from my friend Andy Xu, who started making flutes in Beijing.

"So back to the question of timber, as I was major in physics in the university, I have some knowledge about the acoustic.

In my opinion, the most important thing is about energy transfer, the embouchure is the source of the energy and it runs through the bore carried by air.if the energy loss, the sound will be not that rich.

If the flute body has high rigidity, the energy loss will be less. and normally hard wood has higher rigidity than soft wood.

Another thing which affects the rigidity is the micro structure of the timber, take bamboo as an extreme example. it's has a low density, but it has the longest fiber among the woods, which gives a very high rigidity and low energy loss.

Compared to soft plastic, like PVC, it has higher density than wood, but has no fiber at all, so the sound is not rich, Delrin has higher rigidity, so it works better than PVC."
It seems very convincing to me.

To me that is one of the better theories I have heard in quite some time. Considering how this subject has been beaten to death, or close to it, over the years it is nice to hear some more subtle variables thrown in between "material makes no difference" and "(insert favorite material here) is better than any other".

[TWO TOOTS]

It is always commendable to take a Scientific approach to most unanswered questions. It gives us a better understanding of how things actually work. There is no doubt in my mind that the density of the material used plays a role in transferring the sound. I also tend to think that the embouchure/head of the flute gives the instrument it's " Signature Sound. " Like many other players here, I have attached the head of one flute to the bodies of others only to find the slightest variables in sound from the fully assembled original. I am also considering that their must come a point/threshold in the nominal density, for want of a better term, of a material after which the improvement is not perceptible by the human ear. We also agree that the condition of the bore plays a large roll in smooth flow of air movement. Again, once you use timber of this " Nominal Density, " Then the overriding factors governing the sound of the flute must be in its physical construction and dimensions of component parts. There is probably more to discuss in that range of factors affecting sound than the hardwood, Delrin or for that matter concrete used.