Double hole whistles?
-
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:27 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: I'm here to explore whistles! Traditional Turkish flute (Ney) player originally, racking my melancholic neys for the sweeter and more jovial whistles!
Double hole whistles?
So I tried the search function as well as Senior Google but I don't think I know how to search for it.
Does anyone know if there's a whistle maker making double holes (for bell D specifically but maybe others as well) for an easier D#? Or ir there a reason why double holes are common in recorders and not for whistles?
Does anyone know if there's a whistle maker making double holes (for bell D specifically but maybe others as well) for an easier D#? Or ir there a reason why double holes are common in recorders and not for whistles?
- stringbed
- Posts: 189
- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:36 am
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: Playing woodwind instruments for over 70 years and deeply interested in their history, manufacture, technology, and performance practices.
- Location: Sweden
- Contact:
Re: Double hole whistles?
Assuming you’re referring to the design now commonly marketed as a Baroque recorder, such instruments are expected to produce a full chromatic scale over their entire range. This is done with evenly voiced in-tune cross fingerings, in turn requiring a significantly more complex bore geometry than typifies a tin whistle. Cross-fingering isn’t possible on the lowest two holes, which is why they are commonly doubled.…is there a reason why double holes are common in recorders and not for whistles?
A few reliable cross fingerings may be available on some whistles but half-holing is otherwise a technique that needs to be acquired. However, it is used to alter individual notes in what remain diatonic tunes, played on an instrument not designed to provide unrestricted chromatic flexibility.
-
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:27 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: I'm here to explore whistles! Traditional Turkish flute (Ney) player originally, racking my melancholic neys for the sweeter and more jovial whistles!
Re: Double hole whistles?
Thanks for the response, but I'm not looking for the entire chromatic recorder design; just the whistle but with double hole on the E hole (and perhaps others) for a D# and whether this has been attempted before.stringbed wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:55 amAssuming you’re referring to the design now commonly marketed as a Baroque recorder, such instruments are expected to produce a full chromatic scale over their entire range. This is done with evenly voiced in-tune cross fingerings, in turn requiring a significantly more complex bore geometry than typifies a tin whistle. Cross-fingering isn’t possible on the lowest two holes, which is why they are commonly doubled.…is there a reason why double holes are common in recorders and not for whistles?
A few reliable cross fingerings may be available on some whistles but half-holing is otherwise a technique that needs to be acquired. However, it is used to alter individual notes in what remain diatonic tunes, played on an instrument not designed to provide unrestricted chromatic flexibility.
I've talked to Gary Humphrey about it and he says it's not something he's heard done successfully before and if it was, it'd already be popular, but even that was not a satisfactory answer. Which is why I'm butchering some PVC pipes now to see if and why I can't get a D# hole on an otherwise whistle design.
- RoberTunes
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:33 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: I am a flute, guitar, keyboard + whistle player learning about quality whistles, musical possibilities and playing techniques. I've recorded a CD of my own music and am creating music for kids.
- Location: North America
Re: Double hole whistles?
I've never seen one on the market on a standard 6-hole whistle design, with a double-hole added.
One consideration I'd wonder about is the ability of the player to have good control accessing
a double hole on a metal whistle or high key whistle tube, whereas, on a plastic bodied recorder, the double hole positions
are flattened down for both holes so that the finger tip can easily slide across one or both holes.
One a 6-hole whistle in the key of high D or going down to perhaps alto A, the curvature of the tube surface
would put the double holes at different horizontal positions, and the ease of controlling access to both
positions, quickly, might be an issue. I've got a Yamaha recorder right here, and I'm relaying this issue
as I see it. On a wider body whistle, such as "perhaps" alto G or lower keys, the wider body with therefore
more of a flattened surface, might be more agreeable as a experience making agile motions on double-hole air channels.
You might want to contact the Thornton Whistle folks, who on their whistles do flatten the surface
of the whistle at the positions of holes (all 6 of them), which might remove that issue, at least. The
thicker wall wood body of their whistles allows for that alteration. Sliding a finger tip across
that area would be simple, and Thornton Whistles would make a killing by having a monopoly on the market
of the only chromatic or near-chromatic whistle, now that Bracker is for some reason as yet still unknown,
not yet back in production, with their 9-hole whistles which ARE chromatic. The Shearwater 8-hole "recorder C" whistle
is almost fully chromatic, but only available in the key of C, a fine key with a lot of public acceptance,
I like C major more than nation states and religions, but I wish they offered that chromatic feature on altos and lows as well.
Take a look at wise innovation in whistle design:
Thornton Whistles: https://tommmymartin.wixsite.com/thorntonwhistles
One consideration I'd wonder about is the ability of the player to have good control accessing
a double hole on a metal whistle or high key whistle tube, whereas, on a plastic bodied recorder, the double hole positions
are flattened down for both holes so that the finger tip can easily slide across one or both holes.
One a 6-hole whistle in the key of high D or going down to perhaps alto A, the curvature of the tube surface
would put the double holes at different horizontal positions, and the ease of controlling access to both
positions, quickly, might be an issue. I've got a Yamaha recorder right here, and I'm relaying this issue
as I see it. On a wider body whistle, such as "perhaps" alto G or lower keys, the wider body with therefore
more of a flattened surface, might be more agreeable as a experience making agile motions on double-hole air channels.
You might want to contact the Thornton Whistle folks, who on their whistles do flatten the surface
of the whistle at the positions of holes (all 6 of them), which might remove that issue, at least. The
thicker wall wood body of their whistles allows for that alteration. Sliding a finger tip across
that area would be simple, and Thornton Whistles would make a killing by having a monopoly on the market
of the only chromatic or near-chromatic whistle, now that Bracker is for some reason as yet still unknown,
not yet back in production, with their 9-hole whistles which ARE chromatic. The Shearwater 8-hole "recorder C" whistle
is almost fully chromatic, but only available in the key of C, a fine key with a lot of public acceptance,
I like C major more than nation states and religions, but I wish they offered that chromatic feature on altos and lows as well.
Take a look at wise innovation in whistle design:
Thornton Whistles: https://tommmymartin.wixsite.com/thorntonwhistles
-
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:27 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: I'm here to explore whistles! Traditional Turkish flute (Ney) player originally, racking my melancholic neys for the sweeter and more jovial whistles!
Re: Double hole whistles?
That's interesting! I'll give them a shout.RoberTunes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:37 am I've never seen one on the market on a standard 6-hole whistle design, with a double-hole added.
One consideration I'd wonder about is the ability of the player to have good control accessing
a double hole on a metal whistle or high key whistle tube, whereas, on a plastic bodied recorder, the double hole positions
are flattened down for both holes so that the finger tip can easily slide across one or both holes.
One a 6-hole whistle in the key of high D or going down to perhaps alto A, the curvature of the tube surface
would put the double holes at different horizontal positions, and the ease of controlling access to both
positions, quickly, might be an issue. I've got a Yamaha recorder right here, and I'm relaying this issue
as I see it. On a wider body whistle, such as "perhaps" alto G or lower keys, the wider body with therefore
more of a flattened surface, might be more agreeable as a experience making agile motions on double-hole air channels.
You might want to contact the Thornton Whistle folks, who on their whistles do flatten the surface
of the whistle at the positions of holes (all 6 of them), which might remove that issue, at least. The
thicker wall wood body of their whistles allows for that alteration. Sliding a finger tip across
that area would be simple, and Thornton Whistles would make a killing by having a monopoly on the market
of the only chromatic or near-chromatic whistle, now that Bracker is for some reason as yet still unknown,
not yet back in production, with their 9-hole whistles which ARE chromatic. The Shearwater 8-hole "recorder C" whistle
is almost fully chromatic, but only available in the key of C, a fine key with a lot of public acceptance,
I like C major more than nation states and religions, but I wish they offered that chromatic feature on altos and lows as well.
Take a look at wise innovation in whistle design:
Thornton Whistles: https://tommmymartin.wixsite.com/thorntonwhistles
I've thought about the hole arrangement and that's certainly a factor. I was hoping for High D at least the holes would be close enough to be covered by the flesh of the finger regardless but now that I think about it, larger bore whistles might have it easier as you've said it. Barring that, there's the clarke design.
- chas
- Posts: 7707
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
- Location: East Coast US
Re: Double hole whistles?
The double holes on a recorder have a flat space to make it easy to cover one and not the other. This isn't possible on a whistle, which has a much thinner wall.
The answer on the whistle is to half-hole the Eflat. The hole is generally large enough that with just a little practice doing that is just as easy as navigating two smaller holes on a curved surface.
The answer on the whistle is to half-hole the Eflat. The hole is generally large enough that with just a little practice doing that is just as easy as navigating two smaller holes on a curved surface.
Charlie
Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
- Cyberknight
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:20 am
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: I live in the Boston area and like to play in sessions. I've played whistle for 10+ years and flute for 6 months.
Re: Double hole whistles?
It is absolutely possible on a whistle! All you need is a whistle with thick walls that can be flattened slightly. Many whistle makers make thick-walled whistles (particularly the higher-end makers who use wood instead of metal). Even some metal whistle makers such as Goldie and Kerrywhistles make whistles with thick walls that could be flattened for a double hole.chas wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 11:48 am The double holes on a recorder have a flat space to make it easy to cover one and not the other. This isn't possible on a whistle, which has a much thinner wall.
The answer on the whistle is to half-hole the Eflat. The hole is generally large enough that with just a little practice doing that is just as easy as navigating two smaller holes on a curved surface.
Last edited by Cyberknight on Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
- Cyberknight
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:20 am
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: I live in the Boston area and like to play in sessions. I've played whistle for 10+ years and flute for 6 months.
Re: Double hole whistles?
I do not know of any maker who does this for D# specifically. But I’m certain that it’s possible.Kedster wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:02 am So I tried the search function as well as Senior Google but I don't think I know how to search for it.
Does anyone know if there's a whistle maker making double holes (for bell D specifically but maybe others as well) for an easier D#? Or ir there a reason why double holes are common in recorders and not for whistles?
I own a Morneaux chromatic wooden whistle, and it has a double hole exactly as you describe, but for G and G# rather than D and D#. Look it up on Musique Morneaux’s website and you’ll see the model I’m talking about.
Anyone who tells you this absolutely can’t be done on a whistle is mistaken. It is true, however, that it might be very difficult/impossible to do this on a more traditional, thin-walled whistle. This, along with people being sticklers for tradition, is likely why double holes are not common on pennywhistles.
If you want a whistle like this, you’ll probably have to get it custom made. So find a maker (such as Morneaux or perhaps Goldie) who makes thick-walled whistles and is open to considering custom designs, and shoot them an email.
- chas
- Posts: 7707
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:00 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
- Location: East Coast US
Re: Double hole whistles?
I am one of those wooden whistle makers. I just took a couple of quick measurements of a Moeck descant recorder. The wall thickness is 5 mm/0.2", and the flat for the topmost set of doubled holes is 11.5 mm/0.45". The walls of my whistles are 5/64 or a little south of 2 mm, which is fairly standard. If I tried to mill a flat (actually a cylinder) 11.5 mm wide in that wall, i'd be well into the bore. I've never met a metal whistle with a wall as thick as my wood whistles, so it won't fly on a metal whistle either.Cyberknight wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:13 amIt is absolutely possible on a whistle! All you need is a whistle with thick walls that can be flattened slightly. Many whistle makers make thick-walled whistles (particularly the higher-end makers who use wood instead of metal). Even some metal whistle makers such as Goldie and Kerrywhistles make whistles with thick walls that could be flattened for a double hole.chas wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 11:48 am The double holes on a recorder have a flat space to make it easy to cover one and not the other. This isn't possible on a whistle, which has a much thinner wall.
The answer on the whistle is to half-hole the Eflat. The hole is generally large enough that with just a little practice doing that is just as easy as navigating two smaller holes on a curved surface.
It is still certainly possible to just drill two holes in a round body. But there's a reason they have a flat on a recorder, that's because it's much easier to cover and uncover the individual holes on a flat surface. (They make the D and Eflat possible on a traverso with a key for the Eflat.) One could make a whistle with a 5 mm wall, but that would be a significant research project, and all that work would result in a d whistle that has a diameter as big as a low-D whistle.
Something that just occurred to me is it might be possible to have holes for both the ring finger and pinky of the right hand. Kinda like a D+ whistle, but the same length as a d and with two small holes very close together. That might be something to think about when I retire.
Charlie
Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
-
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:27 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: I'm here to explore whistles! Traditional Turkish flute (Ney) player originally, racking my melancholic neys for the sweeter and more jovial whistles!
Re: Double hole whistles?
That's an interesting design idea sir! Let me know if you ever get around to thatchas wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:37 pmI am one of those wooden whistle makers. I just took a couple of quick measurements of a Moeck descant recorder. The wall thickness is 5 mm/0.2", and the flat for the topmost set of doubled holes is 11.5 mm/0.45". The walls of my whistles are 5/64 or a little south of 2 mm, which is fairly standard. If I tried to mill a flat (actually a cylinder) 11.5 mm wide in that wall, i'd be well into the bore. I've never met a metal whistle with a wall as thick as my wood whistles, so it won't fly on a metal whistle either.Cyberknight wrote: ↑Mon Jan 01, 2024 8:13 amIt is absolutely possible on a whistle! All you need is a whistle with thick walls that can be flattened slightly. Many whistle makers make thick-walled whistles (particularly the higher-end makers who use wood instead of metal). Even some metal whistle makers such as Goldie and Kerrywhistles make whistles with thick walls that could be flattened for a double hole.chas wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 11:48 am The double holes on a recorder have a flat space to make it easy to cover one and not the other. This isn't possible on a whistle, which has a much thinner wall.
The answer on the whistle is to half-hole the Eflat. The hole is generally large enough that with just a little practice doing that is just as easy as navigating two smaller holes on a curved surface.
It is still certainly possible to just drill two holes in a round body. But there's a reason they have a flat on a recorder, that's because it's much easier to cover and uncover the individual holes on a flat surface. (They make the D and Eflat possible on a traverso with a key for the Eflat.) One could make a whistle with a 5 mm wall, but that would be a significant research project, and all that work would result in a d whistle that has a diameter as big as a low-D whistle.
Something that just occurred to me is it might be possible to have holes for both the ring finger and pinky of the right hand. Kinda like a D+ whistle, but the same length as a d and with two small holes very close together. That might be something to think about when I retire.
- Cyberknight
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:20 am
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: I live in the Boston area and like to play in sessions. I've played whistle for 10+ years and flute for 6 months.
Re: Double hole whistles?
Well, I suppose Morneaux whistles must have unusually thick walls, because my Morneaux has a flattened double-hole on it just like a recorder. But it sounds like any other curved-windway whistle, and not that much like a recorder.chas wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:37 pm I am one of those wooden whistle makers. I just took a couple of quick measurements of a Moeck descant recorder. The wall thickness is 5 mm/0.2", and the flat for the topmost set of doubled holes is 11.5 mm/0.45". The walls of my whistles are 5/64 or a little south of 2 mm, which is fairly standard. If I tried to mill a flat (actually a cylinder) 11.5 mm wide in that wall, i'd be well into the bore. I've never met a metal whistle with a wall as thick as my wood whistles, so it won't fly on a metal whistle either.
As for metal whistles, I'm sure it's possible. You'd just have to make the walls thicker. Kerrywhistle Buskers have extremely thick walls...perhaps they could have a design like this?
chas wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:37 pm Something that just occurred to me is it might be possible to have holes for both the ring finger and pinky of the right hand. Kinda like a D+ whistle, but the same length as a d and with two small holes very close together. That might be something to think about when I retire.
I'm not sure I know what you guys mean. Do you mean a small hole for your pinky that, when lifted, turns D into D sharp? Because that already exists. I have a whistle like that (the same one; my Morneaux). A few other whistle-makers have done that as well. And yes, it's an excellent design idea. It really ought to be standard, in my opinion (along with a right-hand F natural hole - also present on my Morneaux).
- Mr.Gumby
- Posts: 6629
- Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Location: the Back of Beyond
Re: Double hole whistles?
It's fine to get if you feel you need it, the overwhelmingit's an excellent design idea. It really ought to be standard, in my opinion (
majority of whistle players get all they want or need from the standard six hole configuration and have no wish to turn the instrument into something else.
My brain hurts
- Cyberknight
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:20 am
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Tell us something.: I live in the Boston area and like to play in sessions. I've played whistle for 10+ years and flute for 6 months.
Re: Double hole whistles?
The overwhelming majority of whistle players are rather unambitious and generally don't try playing chromatically or in odd keys. Those who do typically are not too meticulous about being exactly on-pitch with their half-holing, resulting in a lot of pitchiness. Yes, there's the rare expert player who half-holes extremely well and can genuinely play the whistle like it's an in-tune chromatic instrument. But this is extremely difficult and takes years and years of practice. What could be wrong with simply improving the instrument so that it can access those difficult notes more easily? There's no downside to that...it just makes the instrument better. So people shouldn't resist it, any more than they should resist adding keys to Irish flutes.Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:37 amIt's fine to get if you feel you need it, the overwhelming majority of whistle players get all they want or need from the standard six hole configuration and have no wish to turn the instrument into something else.it's an excellent design idea. It really ought to be standard, in my opinion (
-
- Posts: 1423
- Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:59 pm
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
- Location: Southwestern Ontario
Re: Double hole whistles?
Wanting to play the vast repertoire of diatonic tunes on a diatonic instrument to the best of your ability does not reflect a lack of ambition.Cyberknight wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:15 amThe overwhelming majority of whistle players are rather unambitious and generally don't try playing chromatically or in odd keys.Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:37 amIt's fine to get if you feel you need it, the overwhelming majority of whistle players get all they want or need from the standard six hole configuration and have no wish to turn the instrument into something else.it's an excellent design idea. It really ought to be standard, in my opinion
I appreciate whistle makers who aim to make the best 6-hole diatonic whistle they can, balancing all the competing challenges, without looking to add design elements that their core customers aren't looking for. At the same time, I am happy there are makers like Joseph Morneaux who explore other instrument styles for those customers who want them.So people shouldn't resist it, any more than they should resist adding keys to Irish flutes.
- Mr.Gumby
- Posts: 6629
- Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
- antispam: No
- Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
- Location: the Back of Beyond
Re: Double hole whistles?
As I said: it's fine if you think that is what you need for your own instrument. Advocating it should be standard is a different matter.
The beauty of the whistle is its simplicity. It is never going to be a fully chromatic instrument. As it happens, I have a fully keyed 19th century whistle. That is fine, it has the full range of accidentals but is it fully chromatic in the sense it able to play in many different keys? No, ofcourse it isn't.
I like to think there is a reason why these things never caught on. And it is not because of a lack of ambition among players.
An overwhelming majority of whistleplayers play a type of music that doesn't require a full range of accidentals, and the ones that are occasionally needed are fairly easy to half hole. Does that need practice? Ofcourse it does but once you put that in, it's not particularly hard. Having the ambition to be fully at home with the instrument and make most of its strengths and weaknesses is all that is required.
Adding more holes or even keys is fine if you think you need it in your own music making. For most of us it would be a distraction, a complication and an unnecessary addition to the cost of the instrument.
The beauty of the whistle is its simplicity. It is never going to be a fully chromatic instrument. As it happens, I have a fully keyed 19th century whistle. That is fine, it has the full range of accidentals but is it fully chromatic in the sense it able to play in many different keys? No, ofcourse it isn't.
I like to think there is a reason why these things never caught on. And it is not because of a lack of ambition among players.
An overwhelming majority of whistleplayers play a type of music that doesn't require a full range of accidentals, and the ones that are occasionally needed are fairly easy to half hole. Does that need practice? Ofcourse it does but once you put that in, it's not particularly hard. Having the ambition to be fully at home with the instrument and make most of its strengths and weaknesses is all that is required.
Adding more holes or even keys is fine if you think you need it in your own music making. For most of us it would be a distraction, a complication and an unnecessary addition to the cost of the instrument.
My brain hurts