Here's a little info on lacquer and lac trees:
http://www.nga.gov/education/chinatp_laq.htm
...and a bit about shellac:
http://www.shellac.org/shellac.html
Blackwood sensitization
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Nanohedron
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Gordon
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Why not skip the lox and just put a shmear of cream cheese on the flute?
Yeah, I suppose no one outside NYC got that, and maybe certain parts of south Florida...
My actual guess is that the reaction is being hastened by saliva, as I have yet to hear anyone complain about fingers swelling, in spite of sweat/wood combinations. Fingertips are calloused, but it would seem at least that someone should have had a reaction, say, in the sweaty swirls of their left forefinger, against which the flute is held. This is the sort of spot that poison ivy will crop up, but no one has, to my knowledge, complained about their hands on a blackwood or cocus flute. So, if it's really just the lip, any permanant or semi-permanent barrier should make a huge difference, eilam's hardening oils or something also temporary-yet-sealing. Anyone ever tried a thick coat of beeswax there? I'd rather try that first than shellac a good flute.
Gordon
Yeah, I suppose no one outside NYC got that, and maybe certain parts of south Florida...
My actual guess is that the reaction is being hastened by saliva, as I have yet to hear anyone complain about fingers swelling, in spite of sweat/wood combinations. Fingertips are calloused, but it would seem at least that someone should have had a reaction, say, in the sweaty swirls of their left forefinger, against which the flute is held. This is the sort of spot that poison ivy will crop up, but no one has, to my knowledge, complained about their hands on a blackwood or cocus flute. So, if it's really just the lip, any permanant or semi-permanent barrier should make a huge difference, eilam's hardening oils or something also temporary-yet-sealing. Anyone ever tried a thick coat of beeswax there? I'd rather try that first than shellac a good flute.
Gordon
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claudine
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- Tell us something.: Hi, I am a choir singer from Luxembourg trying to get back to Irish flute playing after a few years of absence from ITM.
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Just a brief summary of my own experience:
- I had a blackwood whistle (which I rarely played) for about 1 year - no problem.
- then I got the blackwood flute and had no problems at all in the beginning
- after about 6 weeks, the skin on my chin was sometimes slightly red and I thought it was just an irritation from playing various wind instruments (having my lower lip often wet with saliva) and also wind and cold weather at that moment
- during the next 2 weeks, the skin just below the lower lip and the rim of the lower lip became gradually redder, itchy and then swollen with blisters. One night after playing, it felt as if I had champagne sparkling inside of my lip.
- at that moment I was certain that the blackwood flute was the origin of these symptoms. I also realized that the linseed oil that I had used on it had become rancid, and the flute had a very strong and unpleasant smell. Following the advice of a clarinet-playing friend, I cleaned the flute with wet papertowels, then let it dry and put almond oil on it.
- I did not play the flute for at least 1 week, being afraid the reaction could get worse, or touch the fingers as well (which didn't happen)
- then I tried to play the flute using tape around the embouchure and nail polish inside of the tonehole. This was not satisfying, and while my lips were ok, I often had a vague itchy feeling on my hands and on my face (I have a habit of thoughtlessly rubbing my cheeks with my hands when I'm nervous), so I did not play often, using rather my Delrin flute during that time.
- 4 months later I finally got the lipplate. It descends inside the tonehole, maybe 2 mm deep (I had found out that I need it that way, as my lower lip protrudes slightly inside the embouchurehole). While the protection for the lips was perfect now, I still got that slightly itchy feeling all over my hands and my face. I didn't know whether it was nervousness or allergic reaction.
- following the advice of fellow-chiffer Stan, I tried to avoid very carefully every contact between wood and face, not touching my face during playing, washing hands and lips after playing. Gradually the situation became better, no more disagreeable itching now.
- For several months I have been totally careless now, letting the flute rest against my face between the tunes, or other nonsense of that kind. No allergic symptoms at all - thanks to the lipplate.
At one moment I had been wondering whether the linseed oil was the origin of my symptoms. I don't think so, as the symptoms also appeared when I was playing the blackwood whistle, which was never in contact with linseed oil.
Now I hope this report can be useful for other allergic flute players. Good luck and don't despair!
- I had a blackwood whistle (which I rarely played) for about 1 year - no problem.
- then I got the blackwood flute and had no problems at all in the beginning
- after about 6 weeks, the skin on my chin was sometimes slightly red and I thought it was just an irritation from playing various wind instruments (having my lower lip often wet with saliva) and also wind and cold weather at that moment
- during the next 2 weeks, the skin just below the lower lip and the rim of the lower lip became gradually redder, itchy and then swollen with blisters. One night after playing, it felt as if I had champagne sparkling inside of my lip.
- at that moment I was certain that the blackwood flute was the origin of these symptoms. I also realized that the linseed oil that I had used on it had become rancid, and the flute had a very strong and unpleasant smell. Following the advice of a clarinet-playing friend, I cleaned the flute with wet papertowels, then let it dry and put almond oil on it.
- I did not play the flute for at least 1 week, being afraid the reaction could get worse, or touch the fingers as well (which didn't happen)
- then I tried to play the flute using tape around the embouchure and nail polish inside of the tonehole. This was not satisfying, and while my lips were ok, I often had a vague itchy feeling on my hands and on my face (I have a habit of thoughtlessly rubbing my cheeks with my hands when I'm nervous), so I did not play often, using rather my Delrin flute during that time.
- 4 months later I finally got the lipplate. It descends inside the tonehole, maybe 2 mm deep (I had found out that I need it that way, as my lower lip protrudes slightly inside the embouchurehole). While the protection for the lips was perfect now, I still got that slightly itchy feeling all over my hands and my face. I didn't know whether it was nervousness or allergic reaction.
- following the advice of fellow-chiffer Stan, I tried to avoid very carefully every contact between wood and face, not touching my face during playing, washing hands and lips after playing. Gradually the situation became better, no more disagreeable itching now.
- For several months I have been totally careless now, letting the flute rest against my face between the tunes, or other nonsense of that kind. No allergic symptoms at all - thanks to the lipplate.
At one moment I had been wondering whether the linseed oil was the origin of my symptoms. I don't think so, as the symptoms also appeared when I was playing the blackwood whistle, which was never in contact with linseed oil.
Now I hope this report can be useful for other allergic flute players. Good luck and don't despair!
Nano, Good man. Check this one out: http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article800.shtml It would be interesting to have a lip plate brushed on with crushed mother of pearl, no? Any idea where to purchase the stuff?
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brad maloney
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I think they call that "Mother of toilet seat".shoner wrote:Nano, Good man. Check this one out: http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article800.shtml It would be interesting to have a lip plate brushed on with crushed mother of pearl, no? Any idea where to purchase the stuff?
It's a funny name but it's real stuff, I think it's crushed abalone or pearl bound in epoxy. They used it on whacky guitars & banjo's alot for peghead overlays & fret markers.Play Happy
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Nanohedron
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I can categorically assure any parties concerned that I do not drool or spray when fluting.Gordon wrote:My actual guess is that the reaction is being hastened by saliva...
Actually, I'm guessing that a combination of sweat, skin oils and skin fineness (as compared to the fingers) are contributing factors.I've wondered at this, myself. Looking at and feeling the skin of my finger pads and tips, the skin of that area feels very much thicker than on the top surfaces of the fingers. This might be the factor....as I have yet to hear anyone complain about fingers swelling, in spite of sweat/wood combinations.
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Nanohedron
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Nanohedron
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sturob
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Upswing?
OK, so this is turning into a much longer thread than any of us anticipated, but . . .
Has anyone wondered, like I have, about the apparent upsurge in allergies to blackwood? Is it that people are more allergic to it, or are people just reporting it, or is there no change and I smoke too much crack? (The third is less likely, I think.) I know blackwood (Dalbergia melanoxylon) has been used for all kinds of wind instruments for a long time, but I also realize that only in simple-system flutes and perhaps whistles (depending on design) do you really get it in/near your mouth. Oh, yeah, and the odd custom wooden Boehm headjoint.
I got stopped by an immigration officer going into Canada about, oh, a month ago, and he quizzed me on the "apparent increase in peanut allergies." I really didn't have a good answer. I know when we were kids (I was born in 1972), everyone smeared peanut butter on everything . . . it could just be today's litigious climate that has given birth to goofy waivers people sign about things having possibly been near to a peanut. Sure, any kind of allergy is potentially life-threatening, but the whole peanut thing (and add blackwood to that) is interesting.
Cocus seems "always" to have been allergenic, since we've got all these nice 19th-century flutes with OEM lip-plates. But blackwood . . . hmm. And about the peanut allergy thing. I've been doing stuff with kids for several years now, and it's quite rare (read maybe 1/year out of hundreds) for any child or parent to report a peanut allergy. Shellfish allergies are a lot more common. I've not had anyone yet mention a cocus or blackwood allergy.
"Yes, Jimmy's allergic to penicillin, peanuts, oysters, cocus, and blackwood. He seems to do fine when he plays his boxwood Aebi."
Stuart
Has anyone wondered, like I have, about the apparent upsurge in allergies to blackwood? Is it that people are more allergic to it, or are people just reporting it, or is there no change and I smoke too much crack? (The third is less likely, I think.) I know blackwood (Dalbergia melanoxylon) has been used for all kinds of wind instruments for a long time, but I also realize that only in simple-system flutes and perhaps whistles (depending on design) do you really get it in/near your mouth. Oh, yeah, and the odd custom wooden Boehm headjoint.
I got stopped by an immigration officer going into Canada about, oh, a month ago, and he quizzed me on the "apparent increase in peanut allergies." I really didn't have a good answer. I know when we were kids (I was born in 1972), everyone smeared peanut butter on everything . . . it could just be today's litigious climate that has given birth to goofy waivers people sign about things having possibly been near to a peanut. Sure, any kind of allergy is potentially life-threatening, but the whole peanut thing (and add blackwood to that) is interesting.
Cocus seems "always" to have been allergenic, since we've got all these nice 19th-century flutes with OEM lip-plates. But blackwood . . . hmm. And about the peanut allergy thing. I've been doing stuff with kids for several years now, and it's quite rare (read maybe 1/year out of hundreds) for any child or parent to report a peanut allergy. Shellfish allergies are a lot more common. I've not had anyone yet mention a cocus or blackwood allergy.
"Yes, Jimmy's allergic to penicillin, peanuts, oysters, cocus, and blackwood. He seems to do fine when he plays his boxwood Aebi."
Stuart
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Nanohedron
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Stuart, I'll reiterate: it's a sensitization to blackwood, not an allergy. The likelihood is that if I were to play flutes made of other exotic hardwoods (cocobolo, rosewood, cocus) I would have a similar reaction. Repeated contact over time is usually the factor that induces sensitization; reactions increase in intensity with each successive contact.
I can't say if there's an upsurge in this; in my neck o' the woods I'm the only one of about, say, twelve or more trad flute players who is sensitized. On this board, only Claudine, myself and maybe one or two more (wasn't it Eldarion for one?) have reported this problem.
I thought that it's important enough a subject to bring up so that others could possibly remember the info we all hashed out, if need be, in the future. It certainly wasn't to whine and get sympathy. As I mentioned, a fully viable solution in my case is forthcoming; until then, it's back to the polymer.
And as to the length of this thread, give me some credit.
I can't say if there's an upsurge in this; in my neck o' the woods I'm the only one of about, say, twelve or more trad flute players who is sensitized. On this board, only Claudine, myself and maybe one or two more (wasn't it Eldarion for one?) have reported this problem.
I thought that it's important enough a subject to bring up so that others could possibly remember the info we all hashed out, if need be, in the future. It certainly wasn't to whine and get sympathy. As I mentioned, a fully viable solution in my case is forthcoming; until then, it's back to the polymer.
And as to the length of this thread, give me some credit.
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Gordon
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Nano, try to explain the difference, exactly, between an allergic reaction and a "sensitization." Allergies are caused by a histimine (sp?) reaction to a substance; essentially, your body's immune system goes on heightened alert when it really shouldn't (code Orange, I think homeland security calls it). A skin reaction when exposed to a substance -- whether blackwood or poison ivy, wool or cat fur or dog saliva, is still an allergic reaction, and it increases in severity with repeated exposure.
I'm not sure what line you're drawing between these terms, allergy and sensitization; moreover, I don't think there is one.
Gordon
I'm not sure what line you're drawing between these terms, allergy and sensitization; moreover, I don't think there is one.
Gordon
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Nanohedron
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Well, you could well be right, Gordon. I'm not a physician of any stripe; I'm just going by what the wood toxicity charts and articles I snooped around had to say about the issue once my sensitization set in. It was those sources that drew the distinction, and I'm just repeating information that was presented to me. If I can find links to the relevant sites, I'll post them here.