Modes in ITM

[SkipJack]

If the key of a song or instrument is whichever note the octave is built on, whats with these modes: Dorian, Aeolian, Mixolydian and how does one play them on a whistle? Some basic research has my mind reeling over the pattern of tonal distance between the notes. These modes aren't going to make me learn all the accidentals on the whistle are they?

[DrPhill]

I spark off a major discussion on this a while back. I learnt more than I needed to, and still did not grasp all the complexities!

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66504&hilit=mode

Enjoy

[pancelticpiper]

On a normally pitched ITM instrument, say, a whistle, Irish flute, or uilleann chanter in D, you come across tunes in:

(starting at the bottom and working up)

D Major
D Mixolydian
E dorian
G Major
A Major
A Mixolydian
A dorian
B minor
C Lydian

Much less common, because, I suppose, of their difficulty on Irish wind instruments, are D minor, G minor, G dorian, C Major, etc.

Many tunes aren't easy to box into any single key, as the notes C and F tend to fluctuate between sharp and natural, the thing Breandan Breathnach called "inflection".

[FJohnSharp]

On a related note, has anyone ever compiled a "what guitar chords go with what modes" type of chart? I'd like to b able to help the guitar players at my session know what to play when we're not playing Dmaj, Gmaj, and Em. Most of them are not versed in modes (and I really only know enough to be pretentious and annoying).

[Fifthtry]

Chris Smith has a book "Celtic Back Up" where he discusses this. It's here: http://www.amazon.com/Mel-Celtic-Back-U ... 0786640650

His Appendix 1 shows the "chordal repertoire" for the 4 Celtic modes for the roots of C, G, D, A E

John

[hans]

On a normally pitched ITM instrument, say, a whistle, Irish flute, or uilleann chanter in D, you come across tunes in:

(starting at the bottom and working up)

D Major
D Mixolydian
E dorian
G Major
A Major
A Mixolydian
A dorian
B minor
C Lydian

Much less common, because, I suppose, of their difficulty on Irish wind instruments, are D minor, G minor, G dorian, C Major, etc.

Many tunes aren't easy to box into any single key, as the notes C and F tend to fluctuate between sharp and natural, the thing Breandan Breathnach called "inflection".

I don't think Lydian is relevant in ITM, so i would leave C Lydian out of the above list.
But I would include E minor (scale as G major starting on E).
With that added to the list, and C Lydian removed, you get the modes used in ITM tunes fitting on a D whistle. But change to a C whistle and you get a number of modes in other keys:
C and F major, Am and Dm minor, Gmix and Cmix mixolydian, DDor and GDor dorian.

Here are some modes for some key signatures. The list excludes Lydian and Locrian modes. Phrygian modes are includes, but are not relevant to ITM.

Code: Select all

Modes for some key signatures
Key sig:  Major  Minor  Mixolydian  Dorian  Phrygian  sharp or flat notes in scale:
4 sharps  E      C#m    BMix        F#Dor   G#Phr     F# C# G# D#
3 sharps  A      F#m    EMix        BDor    C#Phr     F# C# G#
2 sharps  D      Bm     AMix        EDor    F#Phr     F# C#
1 sharp   G      Em     DMix        ADor    BPhr      F#
0 sharps  C      Am     GMix        DDor    EPhr      -
1 flat    F      Dm     CMix        GDor    APhr      Bb
2 flats   Bb     Gm     FMix        CDor    DPhr      Bb Eb
3 flats   Eb     Cm     BbMix       FDor    GPhr      Bb Eb Ab

See also this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64357

[talasiga]

@Hans.
I am sure that pancelticpiper knows a lot about ITM and knows that lydian is not relevant to ITM. Of course I could be wrong but here is how I AUTOMATICALLY (without much labour)took his comment.

I think what he means is that you can interpret a lot of Irish stuff using a cross fingered C tonic. This would apply to major pentatonic melodies in C or transposed to it and also usually G major stuff transposed to C major as in a whole body of tunes and airs that don't have a 4th. That is, any G major stuff that is gapped by omission of C# or C can be transposed to C.

The C is the root note for a lydian series of notes you get natuarlly on a D pipe
C D E F# G A B C+.
The "freak" in relation to Irish music is the F# here because in this mode that is a an augmented 4th which is not usual in the music.

So I think what he means is that you can use a GAPPED lydian for your gapped Ionian piece providing the gap is the missing 4th degree.

Also, a song like Wild Mountain Thyme, which is basically major pentatonic mostly except for only one incidence of the 4th interval can be nicely played in C because it only requires one half holing for to get the F (and that at a leisurely pace).

In short, in accordance with the Latin maxim in my signature, I gave pancelticpiper the benefit of positive interpretation and took his reference to C Lydian mode in Irish music, to mean the C Lydian mode as amended for the music.

[doublebucklemonk]

Alright, ignoring the ITM aspect of this question, here is an explanation of modes.

Modes and Keys are the same thing. In western music there are seven modes. The difference between the modes is the order of the whole steps and half steps that make up the scale.

The seven modes are: (ignore the w's and h's for now)
1. Ionian - wwhwwwh - This is the exact same as Major, obviously very common
2. Dorian - whwwwhw - Also fairly common, very close to minor but a little different
3. Phrygian - hwwwhww - not very common
4. Lydian - wwwhwwh - again, not very common
5. Mixolydian - wwhwwhw - fairly common, close to major
6. Aeolian - whwwhww - This is the same as Minor, very common
7. Locrian - hwwhwww - they talked about this one above.

Most people look at a key and think about the notes in the key, for example D Major you would think of D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D. But another way to think of it is to think of the spaces between the notes. The w's and h's in the above chart show the correct spacing between notes to play the different modes. If you want to play a D Ionian (Major) scale you would start on a D and then play wwhwwwh (from the chart above).

Play D (the starting note)
Play 1 whole step above D = E
Whole step above E = F#
Half step above F# = G
W = A
W = B
W = C#
h = D

So, to figure out any mode, just start on the appropriate note and then use the right number of whole/half steps. To play B locrian, start on B and play hwwhwww (B,C,D,E,F,G,A,B)

Another way to think of it is that each mode starts on a different note of the Major (Ionian) scale. Start by playing a D Major (Ionian) scale. Now using the same notes (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C#) play a scale starting on the second note (E) and ending on the second note an octave higher (high E), that's E dorian. If you start on third note, you get F# Phrygian, 4th is G Lydian, A Mixolydian, B Aeolian (minor), C# Locrian.

So, if you are presented with a mode/key that you don't know, you can figure it out. For example, if you are told to play in C# minor (aeolian), you know that Aeolian (minor) is like playing from 6 to 6 in a Major scale. You also know that C# is the 6th note of the scale when you play an E Major scale. So, if you play C# to C#, using the same #'s and b's as E Major, you will get a C# minor (aeolian) scale (C# D# E F# G# A B C#).

Now go back and look at some of the most popular keys in ITM and you will start to see how they relate.

Two most popular Major (Ionian) keys are D Major and G Major. (easiest scales on whistle)
Two most popular Mixolydian keys are A Mix (which is 5 of D) and D Mix (which is 5 of G)
Two most popular Minor (Aeolian) keys are B Minor (6 of D) and E minor (6 of G)
Two most popular Dorian keys are E Dorian (2 of D) and A Dorian (2 of G)

So, by using these other modes in addition to the normal Major mode (Ionian), we have gone from 2 options (D major or G major) to 8. Technically, the only difference between any of these is the notes you focus on and whether you play C# or C nat. Musically however, you now have 8 different choices with their own unique mood/feel.

This is getting long already, but hope it helps.

[jkrazy52]

I pointedly try to ignore all discussions of music theory. I like playing the music without understanding it, or wrestling with all the ins & outs of "WHY" it is what it is. These threads have popped up regularly here and on several other forums I visit, much to my sorrow ....

I have to say that the post by 'doublebucklemonk' is one of the easiest to understand that this unrepentant hardhead has seen. Just enough to inform without overwhelming the brain. Thanks!

[pancelticpiper]

Since there are ITM tunes in C lydian, I wouldn't say that the lydian mode is irrelevant. Rakish Paddy comes to mind. And perhaps this isn't common, but I have come across Irish fluteplayers (born, raised, learned all their tunes in Ireland) who played many tunes we think of as being in G major in G lydian, by the simple reason that they played C sharps throughout. I thought about including G lydian on my list for that reason.

Now, it's well known that Rakish Paddy comes from Scotland, the Scottish original being called Cabar Feidh (the Deer's Horns).

Cabar Feidh is likewise lydian. On the Scottish pipes it's written in G lydian but since the GHB sounds around 1/2 step higher than written it comes out in A flat lydian.

Actually in the older, 18th century GHB repertoire this G lydian mode is very common, with a huge number of reels, strathspeys, jigs, marches, airs, and piobaireachd being in this mode. It's almost the hallmark of the older music.

Now... the question is, was this music always lydian, or not? Because some have the theory that the C on the GHB was originally a "neutral 3rd" against the A drones, so that tunes in A were neither Major nor Dorian, and tunes in G were neither Lydian nor Major. But the fact remains that the earliest recordings we have of the GHB show a perfect Pythagorian Major 3rd just as is used today.

The harmonic progression of these lydian tunes is odd, for example for a tune in G lydian the tonic being a G Major chord and the dominant being an A Major chord.

One of the oddest things is to hear a tune which we think of as being a straightforward Major tune being played in the Lydian mode on the Scottish pipes, for example The Campbells Are Coming.

[m31]

On a related note, has anyone ever compiled a "what guitar chords go with what modes" type of chart? I'd like to b able to help the guitar players at my session know what to play when we're not playing Dmaj, Gmaj, and Em. Most of them are not versed in modes (and I really only know enough to be pretentious and annoying).

This may be helpful:
http://www.tiompanalley.com/index_files ... compan.htm

[SkipJack]

This is getting long already, but hope it helps.

Thank you muchly Hans and Panceltic. I'm always in awe of you fellows. However, this man truly deserves a cookie.

[talasiga]

Since there are ITM tunes in C lydian, I wouldn't say that the lydian mode is irrelevant. Rakish Paddy comes to mind. And perhaps this isn't common, but I have come across Irish fluteplayers (born, raised, learned all their tunes in Ireland) who played many tunes we think of as being in G major in G lydian, by the simple reason that they played C sharps throughout. I thought about including G lydian on my list for that reason.

Now, it's well known that Rakish Paddy comes from Scotland, the Scottish original being called Cabar Feidh (the Deer's Horns).

Cabar Feidh is likewise lydian. On the Scottish pipes it's written in G lydian but since the GHB sounds around 1/2 step higher than written it comes out in A flat lydian.

Actually in the older, 18th century GHB repertoire this G lydian mode is very common, with a huge number of reels, strathspeys, jigs, marches, airs, and piobaireachd being in this mode. It's almost the hallmark of the older music.

Now... the question is, was this music always lydian, or not? Because some have the theory that the C on the GHB was originally a "neutral 3rd" against the A drones, so that tunes in A were neither Major nor Dorian, and tunes in G were neither Lydian nor Major. But the fact remains that the earliest recordings we have of the GHB show a perfect Pythagorian Major 3rd just as is used today.

The harmonic progression of these lydian tunes is odd, for example for a tune in G lydian the tonic being a G Major chord and the dominant being an A Major chord.

One of the oddest things is to hear a tune which we think of as being a straightforward Major tune being played in the Lydian mode on the Scottish pipes, for example The Campbells Are Coming.

Thanks for this post which is exciting. I am sorry if I may have misrepresented your position in my defence of you in the earlier post.

[hans]

thanks pancelt! i will in future be less dismissive about the Lydian mode!
But i am not convinced that there are many ITM or STM tunes in this mode.

For instance Caberfeidh in its piper's version* i see as essentially alternating between A Mixolydian and G Lydian, and the Lydian aspect is rather fleeting. It always comes back to A Mixolydian.

The fiddle version** of Caberfeidh i know has no Lydian aspects, it alternates between D Dorian with a sharp seventh (a minor-major mode) and C major.

Are there any tunes which are purely in Lydian mode?

* piper's version:

Code: Select all

T: Cabar Feidh
M:4/4
R: march
K:Amix
e| g>a ge g2 d>e | g2 d>c B>A GB | Ag a2 a2 g2 | a2 e>d c>B AB |
g>a ge g2 d>e | g2 d>c B>A  GB | A>B c2 e>f ge | a2 e>d c>B A ||
g| G>B dG BG d>B | G>B dG B>A  GB | A>c eA cA e>c | A>c eA c>B Ag |
G>B dG BG d>B | G>B dG B>A GB | A>B c2 e>f  ge | a2 e>d c>B A ||
e| c2 gc ec g>e | c2 e>f g>e ce | d2 ad fd a>f | d>e f>g a>g fa |
c2 gc ec g>e | c2 e>f g>e ce | a>f ge fd ec | a2 e>d c>B A ||
g| G>G GB G>G GB | G>G Gd B>A GB | A>A AB A>A AB | A>A Ae c>B Ag |
G>G GB G>G GB | G>G Gd B>A GB | A>B c2 e>f ge | a2 e>d c>B A ||

[/size]

** fiddler's version:

Code: Select all

T:Caber Feidh
T:Deer's Antlers, The
R: reel
K:Ddor
G \
| "C"c2ed c2GB | c2GF ECCA | "Dm"defe {^c}d2A^c | d2AG "G"FDDB |
"C"c2ed c2GB | c2 GF ECCE | "F"FEFG ABcA | {^c}d2AG "G"FD D :|
 f | "C"ecgc acgc | ecgc ecce | "Dm"fdad bdad | fgag "G"fddf |
"C"ecgc acgc | GAcd eccg | "F"af"Em"ge "Dm"fd"A"e^c | "Dm"d2"Am"AG "Dm"FD D :|

[/size]

[benhall.1]

Rakish Paddy is in D mix, not C lydian.